Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling and no relationship is created between the show hosts or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863 if you are not a UA student, please contact your respective county's crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
[00:00:41] Speaker B: It's 06:00 in time again for brain matters, the official radio show of the UA Counseling center. We are broadcasting from the campus of the University of Alabama. Good evening. My name is Doctor BJ Guenther and I'm the host of the show along with my colleague and producer Katherine Howell. And in case you don't know, this show is about mental and physical health issues that affect college students and in particular UA students. So you can listen to us each Tuesday night at 06:00 p.m. On 90.7 FM or you can listen online at wbafm ua.edu. You can also download the MyTuner radio app and just type in WVUaFM 90.7. This is our last show for the semester for the academic year. We don't do shows during the summer, but we will start back up probably early September when the fall semester starts again. And I am always every week I'm asking listeners to send in topic ideas. So if you're listening and you have topic ideas for next year, fall and spring, please email those to me at Brain Mattersradio at wbuafm ua.edu and I'll consider using your idea for a show topic. And really, no topic is off limits. I've said this many times, sometimes I forget to redo topics that are still pertinent, like depression, like test anxiety, like stress management relationships. Roommate we probably it's been a while since we've done roommate issues, a show about that, so we probably need to put that on our topic list for the fall. But if you're listening and you have ideas, definitely send those again. It's brain mattersradio at wbuafm dot ua.edu and Catherine will help me remember to give this email out periodically throughout the show tonight. I've been really excited about this show topic and waiting to do it because I feel like it's kind of that time of year. We were talking before the show started about wedding season. It is starting and it is really a weird time of year sometimes for some students who I've got a few right now who are talking about all of their friends getting engaged. And that's the topic of the show. How do you handle or how do you cope with all of your friends getting engaged? If that's what's happening, you know, whether you're in a serious relationship or completely single, it's easy to fall victim to the pressures of society and those around you. And, you know, even though marriage is an extremely big life decision and one that shouldn't be taken lightly, just because all of your friends are getting married, you know, doesn't mean you should be, too. If you're feeling the pressure from all different directions as your friends line up to say, I do, then we're going to talk about that tonight. My guest joins us from Boston, Massachusetts, tonight. Her name is Doctor Deborah Carr, and doctor Carr is a professor of sociology at Boston University and also written widely on stress and health and aging and ways family relations can help or hurt us. Her work has been featured in the ABC, NBC World News Tonight, CNN, NBC Nightly News, New York Times, USA Today, Wall Street Journal. I could go on. It's very impressive and a little intimidating. Doctor Carr, thank you for being on the show.
[00:03:56] Speaker C: Oh, it's my pleasure.
[00:03:58] Speaker B: Tell the listeners a little bit more about yourself, more than I just described. Why were you interested in this topic? I found your name in an article that I was reading when I was researching the topic, and that's how I reached out to you. How were you even approached to comment on an article about your friends getting people's friends getting engaged and making you feel left out?
[00:04:21] Speaker C: Yeah, well, I'm a life course sociologist, so that means I study all the different life course stages, you know, from childhood to adolescence, young adult to old age. But on top of that, I'm also interested in stress and health and well being and family relationships. And I guess I should spread it out a little bit broader to say romantic partnerships, because there are plenty of ways to have wonderful romantic partnerships without actually marrying the person that someone 20 years old or 30 years old who's cohabiting or someone 70 who has a relationship called living apart together means you go steady, but you each go home to your own home and have your privacy at the end of the day.
[00:05:03] Speaker B: Wow, that sounds like a great idea.
And it works. It just depends on your situation. Like you said, you know, you teach at Boston University, right?
I'm curious, what are some of the courses that you teach and does this topic? Is it brought up in some of the courses you teach?
[00:05:24] Speaker C: Sometimes it is I teach a big intro sociology course and then also a course on aging in the life course. So about all these life transitions. But interestingly, in trying to demonstrate to the class of social norms and expectations change over time. Every semester, I ask the students, how would your parents feel if you went home over winter break and said, guess what, I'm engaged and I'm getting married right after graduation, would they be happy? And 99% of the time they shake their heads and they would be like, absolutely not. If they got married at age 21 or 22, their parents would be horrified. They're investing in their education. They're investing in their careers. And there's the view that there is plenty of time to get married. And so we talk about that. But then I throw up on the overhead, the old days, the overhead now just on the computer screen data on the average age at first marriage. And I tell them, if we were teaching this class in 1960, the average age of marriage for women was 19, and for men it was 20. And today for college grads or certainly those with a graduate degree, it's 2627-2829 so it's just to underscore there's no rush, especially for those who have invested heavily in their education and their careers.
[00:06:45] Speaker B: Yes. And, you know, I was just reading an article about that, trying to do a little bit of research before the show, and I think I saw where now the average age is something like 27 for women and 29 for men, as opposed to the nineties when I got married, which was a little bit younger than that, probably by three years. I think it's, I think the article said, wow.
[00:07:13] Speaker C: And it keeps creeping up higher and higher, and that's an overall average, then if you break it down further by years of schooling completed even, and hire for those with a graduate degree, because it's possible to be married in grad school. But before people feel that they're settled, if they don't yet have a steady source of income or a home, or if they view themselves as having to travel the world for their job. Right. Some people don't know where they'll end up. And so it doesn't quite feel right to marry someone when you have a lot of uncertainty in your own future.
[00:07:45] Speaker B: Exactly. And you mentioned it could be different in the south. Is it different regionally or culturally even? Because I, I think it is. I think it's a little bit different here in the south. I think there's more expectations. Honestly, I'm not so sure I'm going out on a ledge here, but I'm not so sure. If someone, like you mentioned, went home and told their parents over Christmas break that they're getting married, I'm not so sure that some of the parents wouldn't be just tickled to death and thrilled. You know, here in the south, I.
[00:08:19] Speaker C: Wonder, there definitely are regional differences, and we know that even the data show that the age of marrying for the first time is younger. Right. In the south certainly, than in the north. And partly that has to do with just the proportion who go on to school after college. Right. It's hard to get married in graduate school. Another important factor is actually religion. People who belong to some particular religious groups tend to marry younger. And so Southern Baptist is one, LDs or Mormons tend to marry younger on average. And so those are two big factors. And then, and the other really has to do with kind of how kind of, I guess, liberal or conservative you are along some family values questions. And then lastly, how many children someone thinks they want? If someone wants four or five kids, you're not going to get married.
[00:09:06] Speaker B: You got to get started early. That clock is ticking.
[00:09:08] Speaker C: And so it's also linked to fancy talk is fertility aspirations. But just how many children one wants and then the last one is just people have different philosophies about childbearing. So someone to kind of sow their wild oats, go have their careers, and maybe have their first birth at 35 or 40, that's kind of more my world. But other people say, I want to have my children young when I'm still healthy enough to run around and chase them, and then they'll be off to college in 18 years when I'm a relatively young person, and then I can go and invest more heavily in my career. So people have very different visions of how it is they want their lives to unfold.
[00:09:47] Speaker B: Yeah. What about culturally, what about different cultures, different countries? Have you done any research or read anything about those differences?
[00:09:58] Speaker C: There definitely are some cross cultural differences, not only in the age at which you want to have children, but how many you want. And so in East Asia, for instance, birth rates are very, very low. Also in kind of western Europe, but then in some parts of sub saharan Africa, birth rates are much higher. And so in part because of high infant mortality. And so people need to have more kids for the chance that one will survive, which is kind of a different context, but there absolutely is. And it's kind of tied together with a variety of attitudes about everything from cohabitation. If you belong to a religious group that just thinks cohabitation or living with a partner outside of marriage and having sexual relationships outside of marriage. If that's something that's taboo, you will speed up the clock on the marriage and the baby. Right. If you think it's fine to cohabit, you'll live with your partner until you're 35, 40, and only legally get married when somehow one of you has the vision that you really want to make your way to the altar.
[00:10:55] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a good point. And I mean, it's weird that we're talking about this today because today I actually had two students, and I have not heard of this in a long time, but two students who mentioned separately that they had friends getting married, and one, they're both very young, one is 20.
I mean, I haven't heard of that in a long time from this age group, to be honest. And then the other was still pretty young, too, like maybe 21 or 22. So it was really ironic that we were doing the show today and now we're talking about this. It's, it's, it's really ironic. But listen, we're going to take a break right now because Katherine's holding her fingers up and pointing at me. And so we're going to take a quick break. When we come back, let's take an email question, just kind of like spontaneous, and see what people are wanting to know about how to handle when all of your friends are getting engaged and you're still single. We'll be right back. You're listening to brain matters on 90.7 the capstone.
[00:12:08] Speaker C: Wvuafm tuscaloosa.
[00:12:11] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling and no relationship is created between the show hosts or guests and any listeners. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863 if you are not a UA student, please contact your respective county's crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
[00:12:50] Speaker B: Hey, you're back listening to brain matters on 90.7 the Capstone. I am Doctor BJ Gunther. We're talking tonight about how to handle when all of your friends are getting engaged and you're still single. And if you have, by the way, if you have topic ideas for upcoming shows, even though this is our last show for this semester, for the academic year, we'll start back up in the fall and we're going to need new ideas for new shows. Nothing's off limits. Just email those ideas to me at Brain mattersradio at wbuafm ua.edu, and I'll consider using those show topics. My guest tonight joining us from Boston. So it's a year. I'm not a year, it's an hour later. A year later. Wow, an hour later. So I always appreciate the folks who join me from the eastern time zone because it's a little bit later up there and I appreciate it. Doctor Deborah Carr. She is a professor of sociology at Boston University. Written. How many books have you written?
[00:13:47] Speaker C: I lost count. I think somewhere around seven or eight.
[00:13:52] Speaker B: You haven't written one specifically about this topic though, probably.
[00:13:57] Speaker C: No, not directly.
[00:13:58] Speaker B: I don't know if there's been many. I found articles, but I really didn't find many books specifically about this. You know, maybe it's a little too niche of a topic to write a whole book on, but when we left off, we were talking about the cultural regional differences even in this country. But we also have gotten some email questions, so I don't know if we have. Let's see if we've answered this already. Sometimes we do. Before we get to the questions, what are some strategies to help support clients, to build a sense of self that isn't tied to societal cultural norms? Marriage or kids?
[00:14:37] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. And how do you get people to kind of ignore all of these kind of pervasive factors that make us predicate our self worth? On being in a partnership, I think the most important thing is to ask people what if they were completely free to choose what they want for themselves, but then when they want it, and to then ask them, have them think about to consider a world in which they don't do this thing that everyone expects them to do and talk it through. Because people often have a tendency to catastrophize like, oh, if I don't get married, I'll live alone and I'll die with my cat. You ask them, really, how likely is that? Let's say you're not married by 30.
Think about what your work life might be like. Think about what your friendships might look like, and then letting people know that they are agentic. People can make choices, and if you really want something, fate is not going to hand it to you. Get them to talk in practical ways about how to achieve that goal. If someone wants a job, they freshen up their resume and apply for jobs. If someone wants to be in a relationship, even though luck and chance is absolutely a good part of that, and anybody in a good relationship will tell you luck or can't play a big role. There are things that they can do. They can join clubs. They can ask their friends for help in doing an introduction. They can maybe expand their standards, and I don't mean lower one standard. That's something people are always told. You're too picky. People know best what the non negotiables are. You want someone of your same religious background or someone who shares your hobbies. But you don't need to have a laundry list of 25 things that no one on the planet would actually live up to. So there are kind of behavioral and cognitive things people can do to make their goal more realistic and more attainable.
[00:16:36] Speaker B: You mentioned the list of 25. I've probably said this before. I know Catherine's heard me probably say this. When I first started working here at the counseling center, I had a student, and I asked her to bring in a list of what she wants in a partner, in a spouse, yada yada. And she brought in eight pages.
I did not know what to do with that. I basically told her, you're never going to find that person. Let's work on this, because it was a little unrealistic. A lot unrealistic, you know? What about, why do you think it bothers some people when many of their friends are getting engaged?
[00:17:17] Speaker C: Yeah, I think that's a good question. I think we all want to feel that we're normal in quotes, and that we kind of fit in with our peers. And if all our friends are getting married, it might force some of these young people to ask themselves, like, what am I doing wrong? Rather than viewing difference as a potential good thing. Right. We all don't have to live our lives lockstep. And in fact, we can learn from each other. If we take different pathways, we can help each other along. But I do think that is difficult. There's kind of the FOMo, right? Fear of missing out. If all of your friends are going to a party or if they're all going to Hilton head for spring break, you're going to feel left out. I think that's just human nature because we compare ourselves to others. But I think there's another reason as well, is that we might worry about actually having those friendships kind of weaken a little bit. We know that when people enter a new romantic partnership, and certainly if they marry and buy a house or have a child, they're just very, very busy. And I think there are some people who aren't as good, honestly keeping their friends in their lives when they enter a partnership. And, you know, you see this on tv shows, right? Everything from, you know, sex in the city to girls, all whatever the young people are watching today, that some people, they just kind of absorb their life with their romantic partner, and they do leave their friends by the wayside. So I can see that's a realistic worry that you might have this really powerful tie that starts to weaken a bit.
[00:18:40] Speaker B: Yeah. I try to encourage my students, I see, who are in relationships, to nurture their friendships, too, because if something happened to that relationship, you would be all alone. And you've got. That's very important to kind of balance that out. One of the articles I read talked about a little bit what you mentioned about it being sad, almost like grieving, when this happens, because you feel like you're losing that. You really are, in some aspects, losing that relationship. When somebody gets married or when they get engaged. It's true, because it's almost like you don't have much in common with them anymore.
[00:19:20] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. And I think when friends lives diverge in any way, it can be stressful. Right. And so one thing, you see a lot of going back way earlier. When girls are around, you know, ten or eleven, they have their best friend in school, and then magically, sadly, when they go to junior high, one ends up being popular, the other doesn't. And there's this rift that just is painful for these young women and young men. Right.
[00:19:46] Speaker B: To a lesser extent.
[00:19:47] Speaker C: And so I think any kind of divergence is really hard because you start off being kind of the same as your friends, your friends, because you have similar values and interests and you enjoy time together. And whether it's marriage or whether one goes to graduate school, the other joins the peace Corps, or one has a job and the other just is kind of staying at home and not working. Those differences will also minimize the number of things you feel you can talk about. But I think it's really important for them to underscore that work and family, that's just one part of your life. And maybe think about what are the hobbies you share with your friends? What are the values you share with your friends? And we can all find common ground with almost anyone, even if it's not as obvious, right?
[00:20:32] Speaker B: True. Yes. You have to work at it, you know, be conscious of it. Do you think that one of the articles I read also suggested that you verbalize it to your friend who's getting engaged? What do you think about that?
[00:20:48] Speaker C: Yeah, I think it could be a good idea, and I think we always need to recognize that some people aren't good at talking about their feelings. And some people are potentially conflict avoidant that they don't want to say what's on their mind. But I think it's much better than ghosting a friend or kind of blowing them off and just kind of neglecting them in some way. And you see that happening sometimes. If one friend is jealous of the other or if it's too painful to see succeed, some people kind of keep that distance because they just don't want to see something that's painful. But what you end up then with is two friends who are hurt rather than one that's hurt. And so I think there's kind of no shame in saying, like, I'm thrilled that you're engaged, but, you know, it makes me feel a little bit bad about myself. And it has to be a delicate dance, though, because one friend can't look like they're being the party pooper who makes the engaged person feel sad about their wedding or guilty. So you have to kind of, it's a very delicate dance where they have to be very mindful of each other.
[00:21:47] Speaker B: Sort of like Kristen Wiig did in bridesmaids.
[00:21:50] Speaker C: Oh, absolutely. Which is interesting.
[00:21:52] Speaker B: And I was reading some of the articles that reminded me of her bitterness. It was hilarious.
[00:21:57] Speaker C: It absolutely is. And because she felt not only was her friend getting married, but she thought her friend was changing and that they were going to lose that friendship. And I think that's a fantastic example because sometimes you might worry, is my friend gonna change to the point that they're going to lose their spark? Are they gonna lose their humor? Are they gonna enter this kind of what we think of as a stayed role of a spouse and parent rather than keep that kind of pizazz that they had when they were kind of a younger person. And so I think that's kind of an important message, recognizing that all people change. And sometimes they might lose an old aspect of themselves, but maybe that was an aspect that wasn't working for them. Right. Someone who's not a partier by nature. Right. They might be happy to no longer be partying and going to frat parties and settling down, of being aware of that. Change can be a good thing in.
[00:22:45] Speaker B: Some cases and reckon and bringing out, bringing it out in the open, because I think it will just fester. You mentioned jealousy. I think it festers into jealousy and envy if it's not addressed. Absolutely. You know, do you, is there a difference in men? You mentioned just slightly that, you know, you've had some guys ask you, I guess, but do men struggle with this also? I don't think I've ever had a guy mention this.
[00:23:13] Speaker C: Yeah, I think some do, but it's probably a little bit later, and I think they might not verbalize it as much. And I think there are a lot of reasons for that. I think women from a young age, even, you know, socialization of girls playing with dolls in a way that boys don't, women are raised to focus very strongly on relationships and to think about their relationships and talk about their relationship cases. So I think that's part of it. I think the other, you know, sadly, is there is a biological time clock that's present for women, and it manifests differently for men. Right. Men, there certainly are age related fertility issues, but for women, it's something that is in one's face all the time. I mean, the fact that a 30 year old pregnancy is called geriatric. Right. These messages are just pervasive.
[00:24:01] Speaker B: And for Jenna Jackson, yes. Not for Janet. Absolutely. She, you know, speaking of, we've got a couple more, and I don't know, maybe we should take a break right now. When we come back, though, I was noticing there's a couple of questions coming in from a man. So this, this is kind of an interesting segue transition, since we're talking about what I just asked you about. Do men struggle with this also? So let's take a break really quick, and then we'll come right back and delve into that, these email questions. We'll be right back. You're listening to brain matters on 90.7, the capstone.
[00:24:47] Speaker C: Wvuafm tuscaloosa.
[00:24:50] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling, and no relationship is created between the show hosts or guests and any listener. If you feel you, if you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863 if you are not a UA student, please contact your respective county's crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
[00:25:28] Speaker B: Hey, you're back listening to brain matters on 90.7 the Capstone. I'm BJ Gunther. We're talking tonight about how to handle when all your friends are getting engaged and you're still single. It's something that is brought up sometimes in sessions with me and probably other counselors, too, this time of year on college campuses. And I think some of it I mentioned it, I guess in the introduction is graduation and just another transition period in your life. But my, my guest is Doctor Deborah Carr. Doctor Carr is a sociology professor at Boston University. Written many books. She says seven, maybe more books. Do you have any more in the works?
[00:26:07] Speaker C: I don't currently. Now I'm in kind of article writing mode, but I'm sure I will have an idea for another book and perhaps this will be it. When you're out of step with your.
[00:26:16] Speaker B: Friends and peers, I think it's needed. I mentioned before the break there's a couple of questions from a guy and let's answer those. These are very good. What impact does comparing oneself to others have on self esteem? Because that's really kind of the root of a lot of this, is you're comparing yourself to your friends.
[00:26:36] Speaker C: Absolutely. That's a great question. And in fact, I actually wrote a piece for psych today on that a couple years ago, that comparing ourselves with others almost always will hurt us, but it's natural. There's actually a psychologist rooting back to the 1950s named Festinger who argues that social comparisons are so powerful, it's almost a drive like hunger that in most areas of life we don't actually know whether we're normal. We don't know if we're doing good, if we're doing bad, because we're not graded in all these areas. And so the only way we figure out things like, am I attractive? Am I funny, am I appealing? Is by comparing ourselves to others.
Oftentimes, right. We will focus on a dimension that we're falling short on because it's top of mind. So if someone's comparing their love life with their partnered friends, they're going to end up feeling bad. And it can be very hurtful to people. You can feel out of step, you can feel depressed, you can feel like you're falling short of your goals. And so it really can be problematic to engage in these comparisons. And I think another thing that's made it worse, so much of young people's lives today are lived out on social media.
[00:27:51] Speaker B: That was another question he had. Yeah.
[00:27:53] Speaker C: And when you compare yourself with social media, it is with curated photos that have been airbrushed. No one puts the photo of them and their boyfriend or girlfriend fighting. You don't show a picture of yourself 05:00 in the morning with no makeup, and so you're comparing yourself to an unrealistic idea, which makes it all the more difficult. So I think if people do engage in these comparisons, you need to first step back and ask, why am I doing this comparison? Why do I need this affirmation?
And then look to see, is your comparison standard realistic or not? I mean, we look at young women comparing themselves to airbrush photos and magazines and then developing eating disorders and getting Botox at 25. These things that are utterly unhealthy because it's an unhealthy standard. And I think the only. Well, there are a couple of ways. There are a couple ways that comparisons are better can be helpful. One is, if you do come to the assessment that you're falling short, ask yourself, okay, if that is the case, what might you do in your own life to make it what you want to be? And so sometimes if you can glean a message from it, or if the person you're comparing yourself to can be a role model in some way, maybe they are strategic about how they date, or maybe they are, you know, engaging in a very healthy fitness regimen for something. Maybe there are some lessons that can be taken away that are healthy. And so that's one of the few upsides I see of that comparison.
[00:29:22] Speaker B: I agree. I think that what we were talking about before, you know, opening a conversation up with your friend, and even I've even suggested when somebody is a little bit envious of a friend of theirs because they're good at something and they don't feel like they're good at that, I've often suggested, why don't you ask that person how they do what they do?
[00:29:45] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:29:46] Speaker B: But they're so scared to do that. I think they're scared of showing vulnerability. And that's when we have to teach, you know, another session on intimacy, not just sexual, but intimacy and getting close to someone and trusting someone. When you can be vulnerable. Are they really your friends if you can't be vulnerable with them?
[00:30:05] Speaker C: Absolutely. And remember that no one is perfect, that we all have a friend who excels in a different dimension. We might have the one friend who's really good at math and the other who has high emotional intelligence, and the other who's just the expert dater. And I think we can all learn from each other. It's very rare that there's one queen bee in the group, or King Bee, whatever the phrase is. If it's a male group who has the advantage in all life realms, and in fact, that's almost impossible. So really appreciating each other's strengths and learning from one another and then recognizing that kind of no one is perfect. We make ourselves better. We make each other better. Right.
[00:30:45] Speaker B: Supported yes. And being aware of that, you know, sometimes it takes a counselor to, like, recognize that and help the person become aware. This is the dynamics that's happening.
Here's another email question, and I'm not even getting to the questions I prepared for you because we've got so many email questions. How can students. This is interesting. How can students navigate sensitive conversations with others about lack of partnership? Or, you know, when others ask, why are you single? When are you going to settle down? Why aren't you married?
[00:31:19] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. That's a great question. It doesn't go away just with students. Right. The backhanded compliments is like, a smart, beautiful woman like you is single, or a handsome fellow like you is still true. And I think we need to kind of, as a society, challenge the notion that couple hood is the only way to be happy. And, in fact, there are kind of social movements of single people who are unpartnered people who at least at one particular stage in their life, realize they want to be autonomous and self directed. They want to work on themselves. They want to work on their career. They want to decorate their.
[00:31:53] Speaker B: Oh, but that's selfish.
[00:31:55] Speaker C: Yeah. And. But you often is this thing, oh, you're selfish, or no one's good enough for you. We offer these things and maybe step back, and the person who's being questioned can kind of ask the question. The question. You're like, it sounds like it's really important to you that I'm in a couple. Like, why do you think it's so important to you?
[00:32:15] Speaker B: Put it back on them.
[00:32:16] Speaker C: Turn it on, flip it, and emphasize that most people know what's best for them. And I think the other thing is people need to recognize being single or partnered is not a meritocratic thing. It's not like only brilliant, beautiful, rich people end up in partnership. Right? Everybody has something to give. And I think the important thing to underscore is that making the right choice and finding the person who was right for you at the right time is what matters, because everybody can look back at the person that they were dating when they were 20, and they're like, good lord, if they had married them, it would have been better. Very short marriage.
I think that's one important point. The other is, I don't want to be a downer, but data show when you study rates of divorce, the strongest, one of the strongest predictors of divorce is young age at first marriage.
Why? You're not economically stable. There's some really interesting work that's summarized in a kind of cool book you might like call red families, blue families that gets back to the north south divide. But there are some studies of development, especially for younger men, brain development and things like impulse control. And the part of the brain that deals with impulse control just isn't as far along if someone's 19 or 20 as if they're 30. And so the impulse to not party, to not drink, to not look at other women. Right. That's something that kind of tamps down a little bit with age. So there's a lot of research talking about the biological, economic, and social reasons why marrying younger isn't always wonderful. And certainly there are youthful marriages that survive forever, ever. But on average, it is a risk factor. So maybe allowing people to recognize it, taking a little bit more time to find oneself, to find a match that is as good as the best fit you can find isn't such a bad thing.
[00:34:09] Speaker B: It's not. And you will be accused of being picky.
[00:34:13] Speaker C: Oh, absolutely.
[00:34:14] Speaker B: That's the number one thing of being picky. Did we mention, have you mentioned socioeconomic status yet?
[00:34:21] Speaker C: No, we haven't. But as sociologists, we talk about that a lot.
[00:34:24] Speaker B: I think it's a huge factor in marrying at a younger age.
[00:34:28] Speaker C: Yeah. And now kind of the trends have gone up and down over time. It used to be that very highly educated people were the ones that kind of pushed out marriage later and later, and they still do because you're in school for so long. But one of the interesting trends is people who have, who drop out of high school, who have very low levels of income. It used to be they would marry very young. Now they actually have much lower rates of marriage for a range of reasons. But one has to be do with the fact that it actually costs a fair amount to marry, even if someone have kind of a small wedding. I think the other is people still feel they need some minimal financial footing to marry, whether it's paying for the wedding, whether it's being financially independent. And so we actually do see some ups and downs. But one of the biggest predictors of age at marriage is actually is education. Right. Just how long you spend in school. And then another factor associated with age at marriage is whether you cohabit or not. And for some people, you want to be in a partnership, you don't want to legally wed them. And so that's another pattern that at some level is linked to religion and kind of political cultural beliefs that some people of more conservative backgrounds still don't believe it's appropriate to cohabit outside of marriage, which means they'll rush into marriage, whereas those who feel kind of empowered to have a steady sexual partner, even if they don't legally marry, can kind of stay with them until they're ready to legally make it married. Make it a marriage.
[00:35:57] Speaker B: What about.
Do you know what the cost of a wedding is now, Katherine? Do you know what the costs? I don't. I haven't been involved in that, but I'm curious. I didn't come across that. I mean, there you mentioned just now how expensive they are, how costly they are, but that doesn't seem to really deter anybody, if you think about it.
[00:36:18] Speaker C: You know, that's a great point. And, you know, if you watch these shows, like four weddings, oh, my God, love that show. But see that they'll get married. Anything for a $1,000 for backyard picnic to $100,000, right. For pull out all the stops. And I think that is an important point because one thing that has actually not too much to do with marriage directly, one thing we're seeing with younger people today is they are coming out of college with more and more educational debt than ever before. And so if you come out of college with a lot of debt, for instance, the last thing you want is more home debt or more marriage debt. And I think there are some young people who want to just get some economic footing. Of course, there are some parents who are willing to foot the bill for the big wedding, but I suspect that's also kind of diminishing over time a little bit because some of the times the parents have to absorb the adult.
[00:37:10] Speaker B: Children'S educational data on that notion. As far as, like, the cost, I do hear many this time of year, I don't have anybody right now, I don't think. But inevitably, this time of year, I hear students talk about being chosen to be a bridesmaids and not being able to afford the dress and actually kind of getting bad with the bride because of this. And sometimes they'll come to counseling just for that, but they just can't afford it and they don't know how to. And it's not just the dress. It'll be like the bachelorette party in Las Vegas, and then it'll be the dress, and then it'll be the bridal shower. So it is costly just to be in a wedding or to be friends with someone who's getting married.
[00:37:58] Speaker C: Absolutely. The bridesmaids dresses are, cost a lot of money, and you are never going to wear them again. I think we can just all put that out there. Then the alterations, it always kind of struck me that why, if you're a size four, are they cutting the dress for someone who's five foot eleven? It's the alterations, it's the shoes, the hair and makeup, it's the travel. God forbid anybody has the destination wedding.
[00:38:21] Speaker B: Which makes everything I forgot about the destination.
[00:38:24] Speaker C: It costs so much. And so this is a really big issue. No one wants to, to feel like they're the party pooper who's not buying the dress and want to participate. But it does neglect the fact that when you're out of school, people have different jobs, different income levels, and in college, you don't pay attention to social class background very much. But there are some people from very wealthy families whose parents can foot the bill and others who can barely scrape together the money for, you know, a David's bridal bridal dress. And so these cleavages about class differences in friendship, we don't want to talk about. We brush them under the rug, but they become really obvious when it comes time to be the bridesmaid.
[00:39:02] Speaker B: They're real. Let's take our last break, and then when we come back, I want to talk some about resources. We'll get to that. But also, can this happen at any age? So hold that thought. And you're listening to brain matters on 19.7 the Capstone.
[00:39:27] Speaker C: WVuaFM Tuscaloosa this show.
[00:39:31] Speaker A: Is not a substitute for professional counseling, and no relationship is created between the show hosts or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863 if you are not a UAC student, please contact your respective county's crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
[00:40:09] Speaker B: Hey, you're back listening to brain matters on 90.67 the Capstone. I'm BJ Gunther. We're talking tonight with doctor Deborah Carr, who is a sociology professor at Boston University in Massachusetts. And the title of the show is how to handle when all your friends are getting engaged, or at least a few of your friends are getting engaged. Maybe not all. And we left off talking about how costly weddings are anyway. But I'm just wondering if, you know, is this just the time in a young person's life, or does this happen at any age? Does that make. Is that a weird question?
[00:40:47] Speaker C: No, not at all. I actually think it can intensify with advancing age. When you're young, it's very intense because when you're in college, you're in the same dorm, you're in the same sorority, your whole world is one another. When you're older, you have a larger world. You have you, your early life friends, your family, your neighbors, your work colleagues. So that helps to buffer. Right, or lessen the impact of any one friend's wedding. But for those who want to marry and especially those who want to have biological children, if you see more and more friends getting married at 30, 35, and you're the one who's either not in a serious relationship or not dating at all, that can be very difficult for a range of reasons. One is, again, the biological time clock, but the other is the perception, which does have some data behind it, that the number of eligible partners shrinks with age. It does. We know that. Again, if we're talking about heterosexual couples here, men, on average, still prefer women who are younger. If you're someone who's 35 or 40 and you go online, a 40 year old man may have his age range 35 to 25. Right. If they want to have biological children, where a 40 year old woman maybe will cut her age range 38 to 50, for instance. So there is kind of objectively a smaller number of elders, eligible candidates as one gets older. So that adds this whole other layer. Not only am I not keeping up with my friends, but it's possible there may not be a permanent partnership in my future.
[00:42:20] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm running out of time, basically, is what you're doing.
[00:42:23] Speaker C: Exactly. And people should kind of rest assured that there's always a second marriage market. There are people who divorce. There are people who are cohabiting who end their unions. Unfortunately, there's some who are widowed prematurely. And so the pool of people to date and marry isn't static. It really does grow and change.
[00:42:44] Speaker B: And there's always our time dating app. Wink, wink.
[00:42:49] Speaker C: Absolutely. Double arp. When they launched their dating app, that thing took off like wildfire. There's things like the golden Bachelor. Those of us who read the New York Times wedding section religiously will always see the 60 year old couple. Right.
[00:43:03] Speaker B: I got you mentioned. Why did you mention the golden bachelor? Because I got sucked in and now they're getting divorced.
[00:43:10] Speaker C: I actually have to write an essay about that.
[00:43:14] Speaker B: Let me know when it's released. I would love to read it because that was. That was a little. That was different.
[00:43:21] Speaker C: They got married way too quickly. And that's actually, that's a kind of good lesson that no one wants to rush into a marriage really, just what you said, just. And it doesn't matter the age, it doesn't happen. You get it that everybody gets kind of caught up in the romance.
[00:43:38] Speaker B: Teresa and Jerry. Yeah. What about one of the articles I read, I think, talked about priorities? Does this cause some people to start questioning their priorities? You know, like, where are they in their life now? What's important to me, etcetera?
[00:43:53] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. I think kind of taking stock of one's life is something that people do kind of pretty often. But sometimes we get caught in the everyday rat race and we don't take a moment to sit back and reflect and say, what do I want? Where am I going? Sometimes we actually need some big things. Often some bad thing happened from outside that forces us to rethink our priorities. Oftentimes it's something like a health threat, the death of a parent or grandparent, or it could be, again, the wedding of one's childhood best friend, and you're like, what? Wow. It forces you to kind of look at your choices and have you been derailed from your earlier goal? So at some level, people can view that as a positive thing. Like, it's always important to check in, and it's also important to recognize that people grow and change. So when we're kids, we all think we're going to get married at 27. And then when you're 27, you're like, good lord, that's so young. Right. We recognize that our lives kind of take off in very different ways. And it's the strength of a person, if they can look at their life and retool, come up with new preferences and new aspirations in light of their current realities. Right. With emphasis on reality, not on a pipe dream, not some fantasy one had when they were realities of where one is currently.
[00:45:15] Speaker B: I think that's the challenge sometimes with the college age person, is the fantasy of what they have in their mind, you know, and they're not meeting that expectation, I guess.
[00:45:27] Speaker C: Absolutely. And I think very, very few people have their lives turn out what they thought it was going to be at 18. And we can view that as kind of a gift at some level. Maybe people's horizons have broadened. Maybe they want to travel the world. Maybe they want to date a range of people before they decide on the one. Right. And because sometimes you really don't know if someone's the one until you've seen those who are not the one. Right. We need some comparison standard.
[00:45:57] Speaker B: Yeah. What about one last email question? Let me see if I can ask this correctly. How can single clients, how can single students find or maintain community within spaces where their friends are all getting engaged or married or starting families?
[00:46:13] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a great question. It's hard. How do you kind of maintain your sense of self and identity and community when your community, you phrase, because people are being pulled in different directions. It's hard. And I think one is really asking oneself, you know, what, what do you want from your friends? Do you want the emotional support? Do you want the hobbies or the companions and then kind of structuring one's life accordingly? And, you know, today there are actually way more ways to meet people and friends than in the past. And it might be something as even surface as, like a meetup group, if you like trivia, if you like pickles ball, if you're a runner. Hobbies, finding something that you have in common, because that's a bond that will persist even when relationships change. If you're best friends with someone, just because you happen to be placed in the dorm room together and you don't have that much in common, the marriage is something. One's engagement could be one factor taking them away, but another could be something else if your relationship isn't really based on kind of common bonds and values. So I think if people can try to find hobby based groups or if they belong to a particular house of worship, because they're going to maintain those values and hobbies even if they're partnered. Right. They can still run even if they're married. They can still go to trivia, even with their partner. And you can join their trivia.
[00:47:26] Speaker B: It's healthy to do that.
[00:47:27] Speaker C: Yes, absolutely. And focus on areas where you can kind of shine and then have them think about what do they want? Maybe it is forming new work friendships or, you know, connecting with friends they've lost contact with.
But I think don't assume that your friend, because they're married, doesn't want to be friends anymore. It could be that maybe you're the one who's receding. You're like, oh, they're so busy with their spouse. Most married parent people I know, or most parents, they're dying to go out, especially parents. So, like, yes, I want a night away from the kids and spouse. I just want a girl's night out.
[00:48:00] Speaker B: Or, yeah, we do our show on the reverse topic.
How do I maintain friendship with my single friends when I'm the only one married?
[00:48:08] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. And most people need a change of scenery sometimes. And we all need multiple kinds of friends. We all know that no one person can be all things to us. Even if you delude yourself and thinking your spouse, a partner, can meet every possible need, that's a pretty big bill to fill in. It's a pathway to disappointment.
[00:48:28] Speaker B: It sure is. You know, we've talked a little. We talked about jealousy and feeling sad, but we really. I don't think we really touched on feeling anger, because one thing I read talked about how some friends are territorial, and I have had students like that that don't like to share their friends with other friends, and it makes for a pretty painful college career. I will just say that. What would you say to someone who's really mad at their friend for getting engaged or getting married?
[00:49:00] Speaker C: Yeah, that's exactly like bridesmaids with the rampage.
[00:49:04] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. Yeah.
[00:49:07] Speaker C: I think kind of trying to get to the heart of what are they angry about?
Do they feel abandoned by the friend? Do they feel that they're being devalued by the friend? Or is it something more inward? Is it something. I mean, sometimes it could be. Especially those coming out of, you know, sororities or dorms. Is it that you felt like this was the person you wanted to marry, meaning that you both like the same. Same person when you were younger?
[00:49:32] Speaker B: I mean, there could be a race.
[00:49:34] Speaker C: If you have a very extreme reaction. But try to figure out what is the source of the anger versus the sadness. Is it abandonment? Is it jealousy or kind of finding out where the anger comes from? Because anger is a really problematic emotion in a way that sadness isn't. When people are angry, what they do is lash out and they push away the people who could have supported them. And whether it's the person who's getting engaged or all the other people in that friendship group, it's very difficult to be with someone who just puts this wall up and so really trying to figure out what is it? And anger, you know, the academic writings on anger emphasize that anger tends to be a reaction to what one perceives to be an unjust situation. Right. And what do they view as the unfairness here? Is it unfair that they were abandoned by their friend? Unfair that they're not the one getting engaged? And so trying to figure out what that motivating force is, because it will be different than sadness.
[00:50:36] Speaker B: Yes, very different than sadness. What final, final thoughts from you? What, you know, you mentioned you're writing another. You write articles, a lot of articles. What are some resources for listeners? Do you have any suggestions for even, like, apps or websites, other books, other articles, anything that people, if they're struggling with this. What can they do? What can they look up?
[00:50:59] Speaker C: Yeah, I think one is on any form of social media, there are always interest groups. And so it could be a single interest group, but also find one on kind of single and single and happy with it to help them see the realm of possibilities.
The other. And this is harder to do because our social circles tend to be really age stratified. But talking to someone who's maybe five or ten years older, who also is single, and seeing how someone with a little bit more experience has weathered the storm, how they have structured their life in a way that works for them, I think that's really important. And then there are kind of a range of, kind of online quizzes and even personality assessments that help people to figure out what are their personal, long and short term goals. And I think that can be really important. And think about the way that a partnership might either help those goals or impede those goals. But beyond that, there are lots of books on Amazon about kind of coping with being single at any age. And lots of tv shows that show how it is in a fictional way that people manage being single and kind of navigate their way through. And sometimes those kind of models can be helpful because it shows us what we want or what we don't want. A role model, the emulator, one to avoid.
[00:52:17] Speaker B: Yes. I think a Carrie Bradshaw, Sex and the City. And when Charlotte got married, you know, that dynamic changed. It was very interesting.
[00:52:25] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. And I think the important thing, though, is for people to recognize. Kind of putting my hat on as an aging scholar. Most of us are going to live very long lives today. 75, 80, 90. Do you want to spend 60, 70 years with one person? Do you want to make a binding choice now? And kind of viewing slightly delayed marriage is not kind of the default, but it's something that you are choosing. Just as you looked at colleges, you try different jobs, kind of trying different partners to learn a little bit more about yourself. And what items on that eight page list that your former client wrote? What are the three non negotiables? And why are those important to you? And it just helps them to make more strategic choices.
[00:53:10] Speaker B: It does. It does. It sets their priorities. And that's usually what we do end up talking about. It's deeper. It's much deeper than just the surface. If it's enough for them to bring up in a counseling session, there's a lot going on there, and most of the time, we don't have many sessions to discuss it. But I try to get there with them because there's something else really going on bothering them. Absolutely.
[00:53:33] Speaker C: And if someone really has a very long list that they want someone so perfect, chances are they're trying to compensate for what they view as deficiencies in themselves.
And so really trying to figure out what are you bringing to the table? And if you feel you're not bringing something to the table, maybe that's something to look inward on. Right. Thinking about how you can be a good partner. It's not just about finding a good partner. It's actually about being a good partner and sustaining that relationship.
[00:54:00] Speaker B: That's right. Thank you so much for being on the show. It went by so fast.
[00:54:04] Speaker C: I mean, such an interesting topic.
[00:54:06] Speaker B: It is such an interesting topic, and it's pertinent to the population. I see. And like I keep saying, this time of year, so this is perfect. Thank you so much for taking the time out. I know it's almost 06:00 there in Boston, and the weather, you said, is a little chilly at 76. I could see on my computer, 76 and sunny here. What's the temperature in Boston?
[00:54:25] Speaker C: Well, now it actually got warmer. It's now 57 heat wave. I had frost on the car when I left my house in the morning. Scrape, scrape, scrape in the winter coat, so.
[00:54:35] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. Well, thank you again. Let me make a few announcements before we close the show. Don't forget, our shows are podcasts recorded and podcasted on the Apple podcast audioboom.com and voices dot ua.edu. Just type in brain matters and you'll find some of our past shows. There's a link to voices ua.edu on our counseling center website at counseling UA. And I always like to thank the people who've made our show possible. First off, our executive director here at the counseling center, Doctor Greg Vanderwal, and of course, my producer and colleague, Katherine Howell. My colleagues here at the counseling center, Katherine Ratchford and the WBUA staff who edit our shows every week. And of course, my guest tonight, Doctor Deborah Carr. This is our last show, as I said, for the semester, for the academic year, we don't do summer shows. We'll start back up in the fall, probably in September. So join us then. I appreciate you listening, and thanks again. Have a good night.
[00:55:42] Speaker A: This show was not intended as a substitute for professional counseling. Further, the views, opinions, and conclusions expressed by the show hosts or their guests are their own and not necessarily those of the University of Alabama, its officers or trustees. Any views, opinions, or conclusions shared on the show do not create a relationship between the host or any guest and any listener, and such a relationship should never be inferred. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, please contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863 if you are not a UA student, please contact your respective Counties Crisis Service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
