Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling and no relationship is created between the show host or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective county's crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
[00:00:40] Speaker B: It's 6:00 in time again for Brain Matters, the official radio show of the UA Counseling Center. We are broadcasting from the campus of the University of Alabama. Good evening. My name is Dr. BJ Gunther and I'm the host of the show along with my colleague and producer Katherine Howell, who hopefully will join us in a few minutes. In case you don't know, the show is about mental and physical health issues that affect college and in particular, UA students. So you can listen to us each Tuesday night at 6pm on 90.7 FM or you can listen online at WVUAFM UA edu. You can also download several apps I like MyTuner radio app and just type in WVUAFM 90.7 and you can get our show that way. Also, this is I can't remember, this is our eighth show for the fall semester. We don't do shows during the summer, so if you have we probably have three or four more shows and I've got those booked out already, but I need some help with topic ideas for the spring semester. So if you have ideas and you're listening, send those to me@brain mattersradiovuafm ua edu and of course I'll consider using your show topics. Nothing's off limits, really. I think I say this all the time, but I think it's a good idea sometimes to just revisit some of the things we've already talked about. I mean, I've been doing this show since 2013, so I feel like we've covered everything. But that's really not true because there's always changing trends in college mental health. And even if we talk about, you know, common topics like depression, stress, anxiety, test anxiety even, there's always a spin that you can, you know, update the topic with. So if you have ideas again, email those to me@brain mattersradiovuafm ua edu and I'll try to use your idea. Tonight's show I'm really excited about because this is something that I feel like is close to my heart, but I didn't know how to articulate it. And I was contacted about a book and we're going to talk about that a little bit. But tonight our topic is Nature is Medicinal. That's what I've titled it because it is. And if you are not an outdoor person, just go ahead and stop listening right now because I can't relate to you. Kathryn's just joined us. Hey, Katherine, good to have you. And Katherine, by the way, this is Jared. I'm fixing to introduce him. But just anyway, you might want to edit that out, people.
Spending time in nature is linked to many positive mental health outcomes and improved focus, lowering your stress, better mood, reducing risk of even developing mental health conditions. And most studies on nature, the ones that I read in researching for this show and well being, look at green spaces like parks and forests. But researchers are also beginning to look at blue spaces. And this was a new concept to me. Places with oceans and river views, which we live here in Tuscaloosa, Alabama. There's a lot of water around us. There's the Black Warrior river, and there's also Lake Tuscaloosa and other small lakes that are considered blue spaces. However, you don't need a picture perfect outdoor experience to get the benefits of nature. And we're going to talk about that a little more. The book I mentioned was written by, has been written by my guest tonight, Jared Anderson. Jared wrote, he's written several books, but the one I'm referring to right now is called Something in the woods loves you. And I just commented to Jared about not only the book being good, but the illustrations are beautiful and you know, you want to. The illustration on the front is just what you would imagine when you're talking about nature being medicinal. Jared, thanks for being on the show.
[00:04:32] Speaker C: Oh, thanks so much for inviting me.
[00:04:34] Speaker B: Another, another thing, another I meant to mention you're not only an author, but you are called a crypto natural. I don't know what that is. Explain to listeners first about your credentials, what a crypto natural is and why you're interested in this topic.
[00:04:52] Speaker C: Okay, so this is going to be a little bit of a winding road.
My background, yeah, my background's in literature, actually. I have a bachelor's and master's in literature and I used to teach English at Ohio University.
Left that job to work in nonprofits doing grant writing, marketing, things like that.
But coming from a lifelong love of nature and also somebody who has struggled with major chronic depression for my entire life or how I land on these topics, the Crypto Naturalist. Thing is, it comes out of a podcast I started that gained a bit of a following in which I was working as a director at Ohio University. And I used to say that I feel like I just sat in meetings about meetings and I wanted to do something playful and fun. I was like, well, what. What would I do if I wanted to do something purely creative just for the fun of it? And so I started this podcast called the Crypto Naturalist, which was me combining my love for old nature shows. My favorite was Marty Stauffer's Wild America and fiction, you know, about strange creatures and cryptids like Bigfoot. So I made up this podcast that was a nature show about fictional nature. So I used to call it Real Love for Imaginary Nature.
[00:06:15] Speaker B: Look, Catherine knows me well. I had no idea what I was stepping into.
You're my spirit animal. I mean, that's why your podcast is probably so popular, because a lot of people can really. It's relatable.
[00:06:30] Speaker C: Well, and part of the fun of that is it's like, all right, I love nature, but I think of myself as a naturalist. But really, I'm an enthusiast, not an expert. And so playing around with fiction meant I could just lean into the enthusiasm and kind of leave the facts aside.
[00:06:45] Speaker B: Yeah, nobody's really fact check checking you. That's what I say.
[00:06:49] Speaker C: No, not for fiction. Yeah.
[00:06:51] Speaker B: This is amazing. Did you always know you could write? Like, have you always been a good writer? How did you. Sidebar. But how did you. Because I'm talking to a lot of students at the counseling center all the time about choosing a career. You know, how did you know you could do this as a career?
[00:07:10] Speaker C: Oh, well, that took a while.
So, I mean, I knew I loved writing and especially poetry. I had a real life changing teacher in the fifth grade that I often think about this and think this might be illegal now, but she would take us out behind the elementary school and just send us off into the woods and say, find a place to sit and you're going to write poetry. And then we're going to come back and share.
And so, yeah, Since I was 10 years old, I've been keeping up with writing nature poetry. But, you know, as I got older, I thought I wanted to be an English professor for a long time. And then I realized what that job was.
And, you know, the job was grading, you know, hundreds of essays by students who didn't necessarily want to write them. So at some point, I kind of gave myself permission to do something else. And I was like, all right, I can read and write without doing it in academia, you know.
[00:08:07] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:08:08] Speaker C: So I went off and did other stuff. You know, I still wanted to do something with words and something mission driven. So I worked doing marketing for, like, botanical gardens, wildlife rescues, things like that. That. That went along with my love of nature.
And I say in the book, I was kind of climbing the corporate ladder. I was doing all the things I thought I was supposed to do, thinking about all these external pressures. So I was a coordinator and then a manager and then a director. And it was in the director role that I really had kind of a mental health crisis and really felt myself at a low point, especially with the depression that I largely wouldn't acknowledge because I grew up firmly with a stigma about talking about mental health.
And I had a very supportive partner that was like, hey, why don't you step away from that, and then we'll figure it out. Like, let's focus on. On working toward mental health. And so I was in a really, you know, rare and privileged position.
[00:09:10] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:09:11] Speaker C: But at the same time as I was working on my mental health, you know, I had gained a following through this podcast. And along with the podcast, I had started publishing poetry on social media. And, I mean, I think I have 300,000 followers now. And that led to the first poetry book deal, and then the second and a third, and that led to this nonfiction deal.
And then I've since sold the novel to Ballentine, which is Random House, a couple weeks ago. So it just kind of grew into a surprise writing career. To be clear, I always would have wanted to have a writing career. I just didn't think it was necessarily realistic. I kind of have always thought, all right, I need to focus on a day job. And then the writing is the side passion.
[00:09:57] Speaker B: Exactly. And I hear other people saying that. Saying, it just seems like you stumbled upon a niche for you.
[00:10:06] Speaker C: Yeah, Yeah. I feel very lucky with it. And I'm still sort of paranoid about it. I still struggle with kind of imposter syndrome.
[00:10:16] Speaker B: I was gonna say it sounds like imposter syndrome.
[00:10:18] Speaker C: Yeah, well. And my wife teases me, because every once in a while, I'll be like, all right, I need to really start thinking about getting a real job again. And she's like, jared, what are you doing? Like, you're living the dream.
[00:10:28] Speaker B: Well, you are living the dream, Jared. And I think. You know what? I think people are thirsting for this. I really do. I work in an office. I'm not gonna lie. When I was doing some research for this show and scanning over Your book, too. I work in an office that has no windows.
All of our offices have no windows. That is not healthy, especially for a therapist. It's just not. And a lot of the research backs that up also, you know, so that's why I work very hard to force myself. Not really force myself, but to intentionally get outside, take a walk on purpose. The vitamin D alone, you crave it, you know, And I just think some people don't realize this. Like, they haven't put it together.
[00:11:18] Speaker C: You know what I mean? It's huge. And, you know, part. Part of this book, you know, it's a memoir, and part of the story it tells is me realizing that I had kind of stopped making time for nature and started to give myself permission to make time, to let it be something important, to let it be a passion I take seriously. Because, you know, getting wrapped up in the working world and expectations, I think school. Yeah. Job. I think I more and more started to think of spending time in nature thing for kids. Yeah.
[00:11:55] Speaker B: Like you did when you were in fifth grade.
[00:11:57] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:11:57] Speaker B: Speaking of your teacher instructing you to go out in the woods, I mean, my third grade teacher had us sit in a bathtub and read. So that's not weird at all. That's weird.
[00:12:07] Speaker C: All right.
[00:12:08] Speaker B: Going out in the woods is not weird.
What would you tell? Like, I have college students who I work with, and it's hard to convince them sometimes. Like, I don't get.
I mentioned at the beginning, like, if you don't like to go outside. I just can't relate. So it's hard for me sometimes when I have students who are very, I don't know, naive when it comes to being outside or being in nature or they're just not very creative because there's some, you know, maybe they don't like it, but you could still. There are ways. You can still bring it into your dorm room, even. What would you tell students, you know, who are struggling with anxiety? Anxiety, let's say, for instance, or stress? How would you help get them, convince them that this works? I mean, this is a memoir, you just said. Yeah. So you've lived it.
[00:13:03] Speaker C: Yeah, it's. It's interesting. Like, I'm careful in this book to avoid, you know, what I kind of think of as toxic positivity. Right. Where I'm like, I definitely didn't want to write a book where I was like, go touch a tree and you'll feel better, you know, but at the same time, like, the story of returning to nature is sort of my story. But I do think there's something universal in it.
And because I talk about mental health publicly, I get messages from people, and I occasionally get sort of heartbreaking messages that say things like, I'd like to connect with nature. I'd like to go out, but I wouldn't know what I was seeing, you know, as if. As if they were going to be quizzed on. On scientific names for trees when they got back.
[00:13:52] Speaker B: This is a botany class.
[00:13:53] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Like, I can. I'm gonna do this incorrectly somehow or, you know, there's like, a lot of strange gatekeeping around authenticity on social media. Or like, well, I can't get to any nature that counts.
[00:14:06] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:14:06] Speaker C: You know, as if the sky doesn't count, you know, as if. As if lichen on a sidewalk isn't. Isn't a miraculous thing to learn about, you know?
[00:14:15] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:14:18] Speaker C: And part of it, I think, is to go spend time in nature is, for me, largely a rejection of this idea that I'm going to somehow be productive.
Like, I go out there and, you know, in my regular life, I think there's all these pressures to be performative in one way or another, you know, to be a good employee or worker or even. Even husband or friend. And when I go out under the trees, like, I feel kind of sort of an animal connection to the world around me that just feels very Healing, natural. Yeah, yeah. Where it's like there are all these pressures in our daily life either to perform or to produce on and on and on, and to just go out there and be there and to connect with your senses that will also anchor you to the place and moment. Like, as somebody who struggles with major depression, one of the things that's painful about that are all these abstract things, right. That I'm a failure in some way, or all these ideas of shame and guilt and abstractions. All right, well, like, if I go out in the woods, I don't have an encounter with the concept of a squirrel. I'm looking at a squirrel. You know, I'm anchored to the. To the time and the place.
So, you know, I think one of the big hurdles for people is that feeling they're going to do it wrong or they're going to do it inauthentically, or they can't do it in a way that counts. And I think. I think part of it is just this idea that. Leave all that aside. This idea that you have to be correct or, you know, showy or dramatic or do the big gesture. I need to go to a national.
[00:15:59] Speaker B: I think you're exactly right. I had a student recently who I just recommended. I just suggested, you know, why don't you take a walk on the river walk? We have a river walk that runs along the river. And I was like, you know, I go down there sometimes and I eat lunch and I count the groundhogs, which I know sounds weird. I know it sounds weird, but that's just fun to me.
[00:16:22] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:16:22] Speaker B: And he came back the next week and he was like, oh my gosh, you were right. I went for a run on the river walk. And you're right, I saw groundhogs. It was like an epiphany for him. It's like he had never seen a groundhog before.
And that was so neat to see somebody, you know, it took a little bit. It's like stopping and smelling the roses is not a cliche.
[00:16:43] Speaker C: Yeah. I love watching groundhogs. And it's so important, I think, to our sense of well being and like making friends with our world to take an interest in the simple things.
Is a groundhog interesting? I think so, yeah. One of the things I talk about in the book is this idea that, you know, I was somebody who struggled a lot with suicidal ideation. I have bad days still. I mean, you know, the. The depression is chronic. But I was so fascinated by the statistic that folks that find that a medication helps sometimes the risk of suicide increases. And I really, I really chewed on that idea for a long time. And thinking of this idea of like, all right, well, you have more energy and clarity, but you don't necessarily have a skill set to pursue happiness or to even acknowledge that happiness is possible.
So so much of my journey with mental health health is this idea that I need to participate in meaning making like. Like I need to cultivate loving the world and taking an interest and giving myself permission to be fascinated by groundhogs and all that stuff is so important. And there's certainly in my own life, I feel the sort of biological side of the depression and that's there and that's real. But then there's the meaning side of it too.
[00:18:12] Speaker B: And Jared, there's the psychological side to it too. Catherine will back me up on this with. There is plenty of research to show and prove that cbt, cognitive behavioral therapy is as effective as medication in some individuals. You know, and this really what we're talking about, the research I've read, because I like to do some research before the show.
All of the research I read basically backs this up with a large percentage of there being a biological and physiological psychological change and they've been able to prove it. And I want to take a break, but when we come back, there's an article that I want to mention that was in Time magazine several years ago talking about forest bathing. Have you ever heard of that?
[00:19:04] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah, I like that term.
[00:19:06] Speaker B: When we come back. That's a little teaser. When we come back. I want to, I want to pick up with that. And also we've got several email questions if you're willing to take those spontaneously. So when we come back, we'll be talking a little more about nature as medicine, basically, or nature is medicinal with Jared Anderson, author and cricket crypto naturalist. I love saying that. We'll be right back. You listening in brain matters on 90.7 the Capstone.
[00:19:40] Speaker A: WVUAFM Tuscaloosa. This show is not a substitute for professional counseling and no relationship is created between the show host or guests and any listeners. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective county's crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
[00:20:21] Speaker B: Hey, you're back listening to brain matters on 90.7 the Capstone. I'm Dr. BJ Gunther. We're talking tonight with author Jared Anderson, who's written a wonderful book entitled Something in the woods loves you. And it's really that title is kind of misleading. I don't know. Some people would not get it. I don't think he says it's a memoir memoir, but it's really talking about how nature can be used medic medicinally, psychologically help. It's just, you know, very helpful and I don't know any other way to describe it. We were when we left off before the break, I mentioned an article that I read and I think I printed it off possibly about a. Yeah. A study done in Japan about forest not just forest bathing, but nature in general. But forest bathing, it was believed to lower stress, but it hadn't been proved. But since then, a large body of evidence has shown that spending time in nature is responsible for many measurable beneficial changes in the body. And that's what I mentioned before the break. But can you talk a little bit about what you know about forest bathing? And it's simple, really.
[00:21:36] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, I'm going to say something in agreement with that and Then I'm going to seem to disagree with myself a little bit. But controversy? Well, it's, I, you know, I'm not, I'm not an expert, I'm an enthusiast, but I've read quite a few of those articles and I've, I've met with forest bathing groups in the UK over zoom and. Yeah, so it's, it's, it's kind of a cool phenomenon. And in my own life, you know, I wear this sort of step tracker and I can see, I can, yeah, I can chart my heart rate going down. Like on long camping trips, I sort of shake my head at it, seeing the trend go down just being, being out in a forest.
So I think that's completely valid and very cool. And doing the research really agrees with just what I've felt. But the paradoxical thing where I push back on the trend a little bit is that there's a certain passivity to me in treating nature like, like it's a, like it's a pill or, or that, you know, you're going to go and just. It, the process will take place with or without you.
[00:22:43] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:22:43] Speaker C: Like for me, I was like, you have to meet it halfway. Like, nature sort of helps me make meaning and think of myself. Yeah. And think of myself as part of the natural world and rooted in it. And you know, I've said before that it's easy to love a postcard picture of a forest or an image of a galaxy or, you know, a spreading oak over a river valley. Okay. Well, we are as natural as any of those things. So why is it so hard to turn that love that feels simple and passive and instinctual and turn it toward ourselves?
But I think it takes kind of an active intention. I think we have to claim some agency and do some of that work of meaning making. So, yes, I love all of the studies about the physiological impact of being in nature, but I also want to encourage people to do sort of the intentional work work too.
[00:23:43] Speaker B: Yes, yes, I think so. I don't think it, for some people, it doesn't just, it doesn't just come naturally, no pun intended. It really doesn't. I've learned that, you know, for some of the students who have really, for whatever reason, they've really never gotten outside a lot or they've never explored, you know, different ways that they can incorporate nature into their lives.
And sometimes that's what we spend the whole session talking about.
[00:24:15] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:24:16] Speaker B: So.
[00:24:16] Speaker C: Yeah. And you know, it's. I have a background where some of my earliest memories are. I grew up in rural Ohio and used to take daily nature walks with my mom. And we would see what was coming up, what was blooming. You know, we did a lot of morel mushroom hunting. And so that's just sort of part of my past that I, that I connect to.
Yeah, yeah. Oh, I love it.
And I know that not everybody grew up in that context.
At the same time though, I think it's there for everybody.
[00:24:47] Speaker B: It is, it's there for everybody. How would you, what kind of, how would you help someone, I guess, or advise someone, recommend someone who is stuck inside all day to interact with nature? What would you say?
[00:25:07] Speaker C: Yeah, I've gone through this with some friends that I've taken camping and I feel like I've learned some lessons from my son who is 5.
And part of it is this, like, don't go to nature to feel smart, go to feel wonder.
Go to connect on sort of an emotional level and leave all the other stuff as an afterthought. I mean, you know, I have a five year old and we go out and take walks and he'll, he'll physically shake with excitement about seeing a bumblebee or, you know, I can't recreate that in a poem or. The other day he asked me, he came up to me and very seriously, he said, are electric eels real? And it's like, wow, what a very fair question. Yeah, sure. Doesn't seem like they would be, but yep, sure they're real.
So, you know, for grown up, pretty.
[00:26:00] Speaker B: Smart for a five year old, honestly. Gosh.
[00:26:02] Speaker C: Yeah. Well, you know, he knows Pokemon and some of those have electric power.
[00:26:06] Speaker B: Right? 15.
[00:26:11] Speaker C: Well, you know, he has the sort of books I have around as part of the thing.
[00:26:14] Speaker B: But you know, one of those articles I read mentioned you mentioned wonder. They called it awe. Awe. You know that it's the same thing and it's the sense of awe that is. That hooks you.
[00:26:28] Speaker C: Yes. Yeah. And I think as a writer, part of what I want to do is rephrase things because I think a lot of that awe and wonder can disappear as we get older through it becoming commonplace.
This idea, it hides in plain sight. You know, in the book, at some point I talk about trees and you know, a tree, it's maybe hard to feel wonder about a tree. So it's like, all right, I'm going to rephrase it as science fiction. What is a tree? It's a solar powered, self replicating machine that fixes carbon and creates oxygen on a planetary scale. Like that's what a treat can we create that. It lifts, you know, thousands of pounds of water silently every day. There's nothing we can do anywhere close to creating something like that.
[00:27:18] Speaker B: Nobody. See, this is what bothers me. Not many people are thinking like that right now. You know what I mean? Like these kids who come in to see me. It sounds so elementary to start talking about a tree, but what I'm trying to get them to do is stop and take a moment to digest this.
That helps you relax, that helps you with the cortisol level, that helps you with the stress, because everything's going so fast around us. And just what you described is just. It's almost like it is a form of meditation, really.
[00:27:54] Speaker C: Yeah. It's just also so easy to overlook. It is, you know, hey, let's take.
[00:27:59] Speaker B: An email question if you're ready. Yeah, I don't think we've already answered this. How much time, daily or weekly do you recommend or suggest that people engage in nature to get some positive effect?
[00:28:14] Speaker C: So with my. My quirky brain and depression, I have to sort of. I have to be careful about that kind of thing because I try to avoid sort of all or nothing thinking where I can set up goals like that that almost feel like an opportunity for failure or that thing of doing it wrong.
So walking is part of my daily regime. But it's easy for me. I'm within walking distance of the woods, so I try to do a little every day.
In terms of recommendation, though, I mean, I think it's be kind to yourself and do it when you can and realize you can do it in little sips along with big gulps.
[00:28:53] Speaker B: Well, and two, I don't think it has to necessarily be in the woods. You know, you don't have to live near the woods even if you live in the city.
One of the suggestions or one of the questions I had written down is like, what if someone lives in the city without much nature in quotes around? And see, I don't look at things like that. I could literally be in the city and still find the pigeons, the sky. As you mentioned, trees are going to be planted in most cities. They're going to have green space. I mean, what else? You have to kind of, like you said, be more intentional and look for it and want that, want this.
[00:29:33] Speaker C: You know, it might sound strange, but sometimes my own hands is a way that I think about that. I can stop and have a meditative moment about how, you know, the processes that created the universe and the, you know, the earth and the animals I love in the deep forests Are the same process that created my own hands, you know, and thinking about my own connections to nature. So, I mean, the human body, it's. It's half your cells aren't human. With our gut bacteria and we're all walking ecosystems, it doesn't take too much. Yeah, right.
But this idea that we are somehow separate from nature is kind of hilarious. If you dig down into it at all. Or even how silly indoor versus outdoor spaces are. As if you go in a wooden box and somehow you're outside in nature.
[00:30:22] Speaker B: It's your house.
[00:30:23] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:30:25] Speaker B: Have you ever had. Okay, this is going to be a weird question, but I'm going. I'm going down the rabbit hole.
[00:30:31] Speaker C: Sure.
[00:30:31] Speaker B: No pun intended. Again.
Have you ever. I know you have. Being out in nature. Being out in the woods. And there's a movie, Stand By Me. If you're listening and you've seen Stand By Me, there is a scene in that movie where the main character, a little boy, he's about 12, I guess, he sees a deer and the deer sees him and he never tells anybody about it. That is a. It doesn't seem like much, but that is a powerful scene. Have you ever had like an interaction like that with an animal, With a wild animal? And it just. I don't. I can't explain it. I don't even know what I'm trying to ask. But it's a connection.
[00:31:12] Speaker C: Yeah. I talk a little bit about one example. My mom always fed the white tailed deer around our house and they got very tame.
You know, I once saw her in a bathrobe drinking coffee and eating a piece of toast. And a doe walked up to her and she just handed the toast to it. Oh my gosh. So that's. That's who I grew up with.
But something that she always said is out mushroom hunting or, you know, just out walking in the woods. If the deer would walk up to you, there was something sort of magic.
Yeah. The deer would come up to you, but something kind of magical would happen, which is the. That after the deer came, chipmunks and birds and all kinds of other animals would take it as a signal that you weren't a danger. And so birds would land nearby or, you know, a chipmunk would. Would scur.
[00:32:02] Speaker B: You're safe, basically.
[00:32:03] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. So. So I've experienced that more than once even in my. In my life now. And I don't have any tame deer around. I. I sort of have learned how to not point my body toward them and to sit on the ground so that I Couldn't chase them and just kind of project the idea that I'm safe. I've had some interesting moments with animals, just with doing that. What I think of as sort of speaking the language of deer.
[00:32:29] Speaker B: And I feel sorry for people who have not experienced that. Who have not experienced that, because hearing us talk about this may sound off the wall to some people, but I really feel sorry for people who don't know what we're talking about or can't go there, can't go there, can't let themselves. You mentioned it a minute ago because you have a five year old, but being childlike, really, that's what it feels like.
[00:32:54] Speaker C: Yeah. And it just makes the world feel bigger. Like it can feel claustrophobic if you. If you think of, you know, the outdoors is something somehow unfriendly or alien to people and. Yeah. And only human spaces and things are welcoming. Like, going out and connecting with nature really makes you feel like part of the universe, not a visitor in it. In a way that I find very nourishing.
[00:33:19] Speaker B: It's. It's very nourishing. That's a good word. About eight years ago, I became a beekeeper. And yeah, people, when I tell them that, I have two reactions. You know, I have one of the awe and wonder. And then other people who are like, terrified, like, how can you do that? I'm like, bees. Then I go into my spiel. Catherine, I know you get tired of me talking about my bees, but until you study bees and you're with bees, people have no idea. The intelligence.
It's amazing. It's amazing. And, you know, I've often wanted to, like, present at conferences about, like, beekeeping, how it relates to mental health.
[00:34:01] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:34:02] Speaker B: How a beehive is similar to, you know, society.
But I haven't figured it. I haven't figured that out yet. How I want to formulate a presentation.
[00:34:14] Speaker C: So you might not be shocked to hear I kept bees for several years.
[00:34:18] Speaker B: Not shocked at all.
[00:34:19] Speaker C: Yeah. And I love just sitting by the entrance of the hive and you just watch them come, the different colors of pollen and I mean, they're just pants. Yeah.
[00:34:27] Speaker B: Pockets. Yeah. It's.
[00:34:28] Speaker C: It's a relaxing thing to. It's a relaxing passion, I think.
[00:34:32] Speaker B: Yeah. Only other beaks know what I'm talking about because it is very relaxing and soothing. There's a lot of different senses. You know, you hear them buzz, which might scare people to death, but it's. It's a humming. You smell the honey and the pollen. Yeah.
[00:34:51] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:34:52] Speaker B: So you smell that.
You obviously see them, you know, it's just fascinating. So I never get tired of talking about it, but. What, why'd you stop? It's hard work, isn't it?
[00:35:03] Speaker C: Well, part of it was having, having a, having a kid and realizing I didn't have time. And then it's true. And then when I had a toddler waddling around, it's, I'm not scary. Yeah. I'm not gonna have the hives in the backyard right now. But I, I bet I'll come back to it on maybe when he gets a little older. Yeah, I do.
[00:35:20] Speaker B: Ms. Let's take our second break. When we come back, I've got more email questions, if that's okay. I haven't even really gotten to a lot of the questions that I have formulated for you in preparation for the show, so maybe we'll try to get to some of those, too. You're listening to brain matters on 90.7. Come back.
[00:35:46] Speaker A: WVUAFM, Tuscaloosa. This show is not a substitute for professional counseling, and no relationship is created between the show hosts or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective county's crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
[00:36:27] Speaker B: Hey, you're back listening to brain matters on 90.7, the capstone. I'm BJ Gunther, and we're talking tonight about basically the healing power of nature in more ways than one, but really as it relates to mental health issues. And my guest is Jared Anderson. Jared has written several books. Jared, talk about the titles and the. You've mentioned the books a little bit. The one that fascinates me is the poetry book about the haunted forest, which. Is that what it are the poems? Exactly what it sounds like since we just came off of Halloween.
[00:37:04] Speaker C: Yeah. No, I mean, it's usually it's really a metaphor. It's this, you know, I sort of think of, I sometimes say that memories are ghosts in the house they haunt is you. Yeah. So as somebody who struggles with mental illness, kind of the haunted forest is a bit of a metaphor for my own mind, but it's also an extended metaphor for nature where, you know, I find mystery and kind of intrigue and wonder and just going out and paying attention. So out in the haunted forest.
[00:37:35] Speaker B: So look, you mentioned Bigfoot and Sasquatch. Same thing.
If I could figure out a way to have you on and talk about that as it relates to somehow mental health, I could talk about that for days. Because I listen to a podcast, too, that talks a lot about Bigfoot and Sasquatch and other mysterious fictional, slash, maybe not so fictional creatures. I'll say it that way.
[00:38:06] Speaker C: We'll. We'll figure it out. We'll find a. We'll find a tactic to.
That would bring me back to talking about.
[00:38:12] Speaker B: That would be. That would be a show. I would love to do that.
[00:38:15] Speaker C: If anybody could do it. I can.
[00:38:16] Speaker B: Well, there's. My husband makes fun of me. He just rolls his eyes. There is a. I shouldn't say this because this is going to make me sound weird, but. But there is a berm. When you walk outside my back door, there's woods and there's a berm up on the hill. And I joke, that's a Bigfoot nest.
[00:38:34] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, because it looks like it.
[00:38:36] Speaker B: And you know what I'm talking about.
So other people who are listening to this research Bigfoot nest. And then you'll know what we're talking about.
Let's take another email question. I don't think we've answered this yet. Specifically, would college students need to find parks in the community to engage. Engage in nature, or could they use spaces on their college campus for this? And what types of places would you suggest?
[00:39:05] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, certainly you don't have to find a park.
I think, I think there are a lot of, kind of arbitrary limitations.
Well, just that's what humans like to do. We like to label spaces as this is nature and this isn't. And, you know, it's. It's just a thing. And if you find a berm or a roadside that you like, if there's a tree you can see that you think is interesting. It's, It's. It's really an illusion that you're ever outside of. Outside of nature and your connection to nature. So part of what you're doing is finding a way to kindle your own imagination and your own sense of connection.
And if you're out counting groundhogs or watching how the lichen spreads on a. On a piece of sidewalk, like it's alive, it's your world, it's always changing. And it doesn't take that much of an effort to notice it. And to notice that it's. It's alive and breathing. And just noticing, I think, enriches our lives.
[00:40:06] Speaker B: I think you're Right. Just being aware, that's the first step. Because there are people we've mentioned before, there are people who never really have been encouraged by their parents or whoever raised them or even by a teacher. You mentioned a teacher.
They've never really been encouraged to engage in observation. Basically.
[00:40:29] Speaker C: Yeah, A made up word that I use, Imagination. Yeah. As I say the, like in stuffification of nature, just seeing it as stuff or background. I think it takes a minute to snap out of that, that it isn't just set dressing.
[00:40:47] Speaker B: Do you think you can. Do you think people are innately creative or do you think people can be taught talk creativity?
[00:40:55] Speaker C: Oh, I think everybody's innately creative to one degree or another. And then it's how much do you want to foster that skill?
I was always a handful with creativity. That same teacher I told you about in the fifth grade, my parents tease me to this day that they had a parent teacher conference and they went in and the teacher slid a piece of paper across the table and said, all right, well, so Jared wrote a poem and he used the phrase shackles of existence. And it.
I was, I was nine, I think, when I did that. So, gosh, I've always been a handful with, with the poetry. But.
But yeah, I think, I think it's fun for everybody. And I, I think one danger is that we, we build these narratives that become our identities. And some people think they're bad at it because they had an experience in school and so they just, they think it's an opportunity to fail or embarrass themselves. And I think if you can learn to leave that aside and think about any kind of creativity as play again, then I think it could be for everybody.
[00:42:03] Speaker B: Well, and two, you hit on something that might really, I guess, resonate with some listeners and even me. You know, if you're a very creative person and you attempt something a lot of times because it is so creative, it is so different than what anybody else recognizes that you, you are criticized sometimes or made fun of.
[00:42:29] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, I really think the best way to get good at anything is to, as I said, turn it into play. All right, well, how do we define play? Well, for me, it's something you can't fail at. So you have to find a community or a space that'll join with you in that idea.
[00:42:49] Speaker B: Excuse me. That's the hard part, I think, especially on a college campus. Yeah, I have students come in and they. I had someone yesterday, as a matter of fact, and she has, she's a freshman and she hasn't found her people yet, you know, and that's, that's the big thing. And we talk about that a lot. Just basically sometimes even starting with like what your hobbies are, that's like a good place to start, you know, until you find your people. How does.
This may be an odd question, but how can social media help, like so many of these kids, so many people follow social media sites. Can you use that to gain some, you know, benefit mental health wise?
[00:43:36] Speaker C: Yeah, I think so. I have a bit of a love hate relationship with social media and I'll lay it out for you, it's. I live on a, on a little one way street in a small town in Ohio next to a forest and a cemetery. And if it wasn't for social media a lot of people would have never discovered my writing. And so it's huge for me to reach out and touch the world at the same time as somebody who struggles with depression.
What is social media? Well, it can feel like a natural landscape, like you're encountering the world as it is. Right. But a thing we know about social media is that it's run by these algorithms that monetize our attention. And scientists have figured out they mainly keep our attention through making us angry or afraid.
So as somebody who struggles with mental illness, I have to be very careful about, yeah, I have to be careful about using it as a passive entertainment. So I often say like use it as a telephone, not a television. If you're using it to connect with people. Like as you said said in terms of finding your people connect over a hobby or a passion or with a community and you're talking to other people. Good use of social media. If you do the thing I'm guilty of sometimes where you get sucked into that doom scrolling spiral, you go down that rabbit hole. Yep. Then it's, then it's time to step away and find a way to maintain healthy habits with it. I don't think we've cracked that yet.
[00:45:11] Speaker B: You sound like though, how did you become so insightful?
Because you sound like you realize that now. But I think these kids that who I see, they're not because their brain is still developing, they're not able to catch that yet.
[00:45:29] Speaker C: Repeated failure is probably how I, is how I've come to a lot of this stuff. It's just, you know, I've noticed over the years in the rise of social media, I'm just old enough that I didn't have the Internet in high school and it wasn't really till college that it took off for me and having to, I mean, work with cognitive behavioral therapy and being aware of my own thoughts, like, that's been an important tool for me in a lot of ways. And one of them is, wow, my heart is racing and I feel miserable. And I'm scrolling through my phone, like, oh, maybe I. Maybe I'm noticing a behavior here who. That isn't serving me.
[00:46:08] Speaker B: I know, I know. And I think that's part of my job when people come for therapy, is to help people recognize that a little bit more. More, or question that or just confront that.
[00:46:18] Speaker C: You know, it's. It's invisible on purpose. It's engineered that way. It is.
[00:46:23] Speaker B: Okay, here's another question that is another angle. Another email question. Is there any natural setting that seems to have a negative effect on our mental health?
[00:46:36] Speaker C: Negative?
I can't think of one.
[00:46:43] Speaker B: I can't either. I don't. Unless you're, like, really afraid and you had something traumatic possibly happen in your childhood. I don't know, like, chased by a bear. I'm just making this up.
[00:46:57] Speaker C: I mean, along the lines. Along those lines, I'll say that, you know, I can go out in nature and be miserable if I'm having a really rough time with depression.
But as I get older, I've started to. To formulate this idea of, like, a miserable, successful day that, you know, it might be a bad day, I might be in a rough period, but I can still decide that, all right, well, maybe I can be miserable and have a successful day. Maybe I can still get out and visit a tree that's meaningful to me. Or maybe I can be proud of the fact that I put shoes on. I mean, you know, you.
[00:47:36] Speaker B: It's baby steps.
[00:47:37] Speaker C: Yeah. And we get to decide what. What counts as victory within our. Within our own lives and internal landscapes. So, you know, I always find nature to be medicinal, but I'm not always ready to receive it. And, you know, I've made space over the years for that to be okay, too.
[00:47:56] Speaker B: Well, you've worked at it, too. It's taken many years of hard, hard work. Work.
[00:48:02] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:48:02] Speaker B: Sometimes it doesn't come that easy for some people. And that's why we're talking about this.
[00:48:07] Speaker C: No, and I think. I think you need to expect it to not be easy. I mean, it's. It's.
A lot of people reach out to me and want to talk shop about their mental health, and, you know, I'm careful about it because I'm. I'm not an expert.
I had somebody say that my book isn't A how to. It's a me too. You know, it's like, yep.
But often one of the main things I'll talk about is respecting that. Things that feel like barriers to you really, you know, they're tough and they may not seem like barriers to your loved ones. And, you know, I get one a lot that's like, how do I help my loved one that's really struggling with depression? And one of my main pieces of advice that my wife did for me was just remove as many barriers as you can. My wife very much was like, hey, you know, I've made a list of therapists that take our insurance. And, you know, I'll go with you to your primary care physician. That's right.
[00:49:07] Speaker B: Even here we do that. If I talk to a student who's a little apprehensive about coming to counseling, I'll ask them, bring your friend with you. Bring your voice of reason friend with you to encourage you so there's not an obstacle, like, anything we can do. So I get that.
[00:49:23] Speaker C: And I. And the idea that, like, it's a game of. It's a game of inches. Often, like, it's so when, when you feel miserable, it's really, you want the big showy thing that's going to fix it. And then having to make friends with the idea that, like, this is a process that will develop over time. It's not something that's often, you know, great to hear. But that's another thing that I kind of glean from nature and as a gardener, and it's like, no, it's the little choices and the little efforts that matter, and you have to respect them.
[00:49:51] Speaker B: That's right. That's a good point. Hey, let's take our last break, and when we come back, I want to talk to you. If you have any more resources for listeners, I want to ask you something about your podcast, too. So hang on if you're listening. We've got one more break. We'll be right back. You're listening to brain matters on 90.7, the capstone.
[00:50:18] Speaker A: WVUAFM Tuscaloosa. This show is not a substitute for professional counseling and no relationship is created between the show hosts or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective counties crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
[00:50:59] Speaker B: You're back listening to brain matters on 90.7, the capstone. I'm BJ Guenther. We're talking tonight with Jared Anderson about the power of nature as a healer for mental health, or just as not necessarily a treatment, but medicinally, how nature can benefit your mental health. And he's written several books, but the one we've really kind of been referencing tonight is called Something in the woods loves you. It's such a good book and it's an easy read, Jared. I mean, you would think you said it was a little bit about how you struggled with depression, but don't let that discourage you if you're listening, because it is a beautiful book. You talk a lot about nature and you give examples, and I think that's what people are looking for a lot of times. You know, some books are just so boring as far as far as.
Especially when you're talking about mental health. Sometimes they're just very, I don't know, academic, I guess you could say, you know, and that's just boring. This is not like that.
[00:52:08] Speaker C: Well, I am very comfortable being vulnerable and personal at this point in my life. And I also have a short attention span, so I think that makes me.
I think I'm very aware of not being boring. I hope you have.
[00:52:22] Speaker B: Besides your book, do you have any more resources for listeners and, you know, mention your podcast again?
[00:52:29] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, the main thing I will say is it's scary, but go to the experts.
You know, it's easy, especially when you're struggling with anxiety and depression, to make your world smaller and smaller. But there are people who've dedicated their whole life to being an expert on the struggles you're having and reach out and you're going to find that there are hands reaching back. And, you know, I found I had to shop around for a counselor and I had to shop around for medication. But that process, little by little, has meant everything in my life. And so just this idea that you're worth it and it's a process. And, you know, how do you.
[00:53:12] Speaker B: With your podcast, Is it actually called the Crypto Naturalist?
[00:53:16] Speaker C: Yeah, and that podcast is just me having fun.
[00:53:19] Speaker B: How do you. Okay, then I've got to ask. Sidebar. We're going to go off on task for a minute. How do you come up with your topics?
[00:53:30] Speaker C: Oh, geez. So I never do any, like Cryptid or Creature that has a Known mythology. I like to invent everything. And, you know, I just wander around the woods Imagining things a lot. And then I write sort of short stories and narrate them, and I just have fun with it.
[00:53:48] Speaker B: Is it just mostly you talking about, like, the creature that you've imagined? Do you take. Do you have guests like I'm having, or do you. You have questions? Can people send in questions or anything or comment?
[00:53:59] Speaker C: So. No, mine's all scripted, so I kind of. I kind. That's. I do have guest writers that do poetry or write short pieces for me, and then I'll have guest experts that are, you know, pretend experts that are on the show, but that one's just me having fun. And then, you know, I do write a lot then in poetry and in nonfiction about mental health. But the podcast is pure, pure play.
[00:54:23] Speaker B: And I bet you know what that. How medicinal is that having the podcast, really, because that's another way for not only your writing helps get that out of, you know, your brain, but talking about it, too, that's just another form of expression.
[00:54:42] Speaker C: The podcast was a cure for me when I really hit a rough. A rough patch, a writer's block where I was getting too worried about being correct or, you know, sounding smart or, you know, or fitting what.
[00:54:57] Speaker B: What publishers want. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah.
[00:55:00] Speaker C: Yep. So I really made myself put all that aside and just do something silly for the fun of it, you know, whimsical is what I.
[00:55:08] Speaker B: It sounds. That's a perfect word. I love that word. That's cool. Thank you so much for being on the show. I say this every week, but it really does go by fast, especially when it's an interesting show like. Like tonight's was. I love it. Thank you.
[00:55:22] Speaker C: Well, thanks so much for having me, and thanks for doing this work. I think it's. It's really important.
[00:55:27] Speaker B: No problem. And this is probably, let's say, I don't know how many years. 20 going on 24, 25 years I've been a therapist. So. Yeah, it's been a minute. Don't forget. I want to mention our shows are recorded and podcasted to Apple, of course, podcast, but also an audio boom. And also you can find some of our. Most of our shows on the Counseling center website at counseling. Uav. Eduoices. Ua. Edu. So just go to our website, type in Brain Matters, and you'll find some of our past shows. I always like to thank some people who have made the show possible. Dr. Greg Manderwall, he's our executive director here at the Counseling Center. Of course, my producer and colleague, Katherine Howell, My colleagues here at the counseling center. Katherine Ratchford is the UA student who edits our shows and she does a fantastic job. The WVUA staff who've always been so supportive, and my guest tonight, Jared Anderson. Don't forget we're on again next week. It's going to be an interesting show. I had to cancel this show a few weeks ago because I had a terrible sinus infection. I just couldn't do the show. So the show topic is going to be History of Mental Health for the State of Alabama. It's fascinating. You wouldn't believe it, but it is. It's very interesting and I can't believe I hadn't had this show on before. So tune in next week. Same time take place. Thanks again for listening to Brain Matters. We'll see you next week. Good night.
[00:57:04] Speaker A: The show was not intended as a substitute for professional counseling. Further, the views, opinions and conclusions expressed by the show hosts or their guests are their own and not necessarily those of the University of Alabama, its officers or trustees. Any views, opinions or conclusions shared on the show do not create a relationship between the host or any guest and any listener, and such a relationship should never be inferred. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, please contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective county's crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
