Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling, and no relationship is created between the show hosts or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863 if you are not a UA student, please contact your respective county's crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
[00:00:43] Speaker B: It's 06:00 in time again for brain matters, the official radio show of the UA Counseling center. We are broadcasting from the campus of the University of Alabama. Good evening. My name is Doctor BJ Guenther and I'm the host of the show along with my colleague and producer Katherine Howell, who's not here tonight, but she'll be back next week. And in case you don't know, this show is about mental and physical health issues that affect college students and in particular UA students. So you can listen to us each Tuesday night at 06:00 p.m. on 90.7 fm, or you can listen online at wvuafm ua.edu. you can also download some apps like MyTuner radio and just type in WVuaFM 90.7. You'll be able to listen to us that way too. Also, if you have any ideas for upcoming show topics, because this is our, this is only our second show for the fall semester because we don't do shows in the summer, so we always need ideas. I think I am scheduled out until the end of October, but after that we need some more ideas for show topics. So if you're listening and you have some ideas that we haven't done, or maybe we've done and we need to do, again, send those topic ideas to me at brainmattersradio at wBafm ua.edu. and of course, I'll consider using your show topic. I had someone talking to me last night with some ideas, giving me some ideas, and he asked me, he was like, is anything, you know, off limits? And I said, no, not really. We have done some very, you know, specific shows, very unusual shows, maybe that people haven't thought about or didn't know anything about college mental health or the trends that are in college mental health. So if you hear of anything that we have not done that you would like us to reach out to an expert to talk about that topic, just email those topics to me. And again, it's brain mattersradio at wvuafm ua.edu also, we'll take some questions for the show tonight, and if you have questions for our guests or for myself, email those to me and I'll try to remember. Katherine is always so good at helping me remember giving this email address out. So I'll try to, when we come back from breaks, I'll try to remember to give the email address out again. Tonight's topic, we have had a guest on the show in, I don't know, it's been probably over five or six years ago about music therapy, but I wanted to do something a little bit more specific because I think it is so important. And I talked to, to students a lot about the music that they're listening to, the artists that they, you know, are inspired by, and what that music does for them, whether they're studying or going through breakups or having problems sleeping. The top, the topic tonight is how music can boost your mood. And when I was doing research for the topic, I realized I probably should have named it something a little more broad, like how can you have, you know, how music can, can I be beneficial psychologically? Because when I was reading about music therapy, and our guests will probably expand on this a little bit, I hope, but is how much music can do not only for your mood, but for all areas of your life. So hopefully, we'll just talk a little more about that and make it a little more broad. The notion that music can influence your thoughts, feelings and behaviors probably does not come, you know, as a surprise to any of you listeners. But listening to music can be entertaining, and some research shows that it might even make you healthier. Music can be a source of pleasure and contentment, but there are also many, like I just mentioned, many psychological benefits as well. Music can relax the mind, energize the body, and help people manage pain better. My guest tonight is Dawn. I did not ask you how to pronounce your last name, so I'm just going to take a stab at it. Is it Sandel or Sandell?
[00:04:30] Speaker C: Sandel.
[00:04:31] Speaker B: Sandell. Dawn Sandel. She is the director of music therapy, the clinical field education here at the University of Alabama. And I'm just so privileged to have you today because I know you're busy with us starting the, you know, the semester off. I don't know. How many classes do you teach?
[00:04:47] Speaker C: Well, I co teach several because I'm the clinical supervisor. I'm mostly out in the community with our students. Oh, good.
[00:04:57] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:04:57] Speaker C: Various clinical sites that they're assigned to, so.
[00:05:00] Speaker B: Well, excuse me. Give us more details, like about yourself, where you're from, your credentials and why you're interested, you know, how did you get interested in music therapy? Sure.
[00:05:11] Speaker C: Well, first of all, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here and talk about music therapy.
We're having to advocate for music therapy all the time because, you know, it's, it's not a newer, new field, but it is kind of newer.
[00:05:28] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:05:29] Speaker C: And so we're always having to, you know, when we're out in the community, you know, kindly educate people. You know, they might say, oh, you're here to entertain us. And, you know, music therapy, while music is entertaining, we have very specific goals that we're working on with our clients and our patients.
So I can get started with kind of how I got started with music therapy. How did you, I was, I believe, in 9th grade, and at that time, I mean, I was already interested in music. I was taking piano lessons. I think I started piano when I was five or six years old.
[00:06:07] Speaker B: I was going to ask if you play an instrument.
[00:06:09] Speaker C: I do.
I loved to sing and just, you know, was really interested in music at that time. But I also like to help people and, I don't know, give people advice, you know, how much advice was I giving it in 9th grade? I don't know, but I just, I was really into a lot of service organizations. And in 9th grade I took a, I guess it's a test that sort of has students thinking about, you know, what classes they might want to take in high school and kind of where their skills are and where their interests are. And one of the professions on the list under music was music therapy. And I had never heard of it before, but I did some research and learned about the field of music therapy. And really from then on just thought it was the right fit for me.
[00:07:07] Speaker B: It's amazing how you can stumble upon, like, a career choice like that when you don't even really know that it exists. But it also was something you were so, you're very fortunate because it was something you were so interested in. And, you know, music therapy, I think when you were talking about having to advocate for it and really educate people, it's a little bit like some other forms of therapy, like play therapy, for instance. I think people kind of take it for granted or they don't understand the extent of the research that backs up the science. There really is a science to it with regards to how music affects your brain and even dopamine levels, you know, to make you happier. So it's there.
What about, you know, give the definition, what is music therapy? I mean, when you go out and you educate people, what do you tell them?
[00:07:57] Speaker C: Yes. So my kind of elevator speech is that music therapy is the clinical and evidence based use of music and music interventions by a music therapist to address cognitive, physical, communication and social emotional needs of people of all ages. So that's kind of a mouthful. It is to say we use music to achieve non musical goals.
So we're using music to potentially decrease anxiety, to promote pain management, to work on and teach coping skills.
We work with so many populations and so many different settings, and so our goals are going to be catered to, you know, the. The people that we're working with and what their individualized goals are.
[00:08:52] Speaker B: Do you have to play an instrument to be a music therapist?
[00:08:55] Speaker C: You do? Yes.
[00:08:56] Speaker B: No, you don't really? Oh, I couldn't. Well, I played the banjo in the organ. People always laughing when I say that because they don't really go together, but I don't feel confident that I could probably do that, you know?
[00:09:10] Speaker C: Yeah. So that is part of the, you know, course requirements. First of all, you have to be accepted into the school of music. So our students, you know, go through a whole audition process and you have to be accepted into the school.
[00:09:23] Speaker B: Wow. Yeah.
[00:09:24] Speaker C: And usually, you know, they have a primary instrument that they.
That they come in with, you know, they will take private lessons for. So we have students that their primary instrument might be voice, piano, guitar, viola, clarinetization. That's kind of their primary instrument. But as a music therapy major, they are required to take guitar. You have to learn how to play guitar. You have to learn how to play and be functional at those. We encourage some of them to take voice lessons if they're not already pretty proficient with singing. We encourage voice lessons because those are the three major instruments that you're going to be using.
[00:10:07] Speaker B: Can you, can you be. Well, what is the age? Is there a limit on ages that you can use music therapy with? I don't think there would be.
[00:10:15] Speaker C: There isn't. In fact, I just became certified in NICU music therapy, so working with the little babies in the neonatal intensive care unit at the hospital. So, you know, we're seeing them as early as 25 weeks.
[00:10:34] Speaker B: This is fascinating. Like, so you're allowed. Okay, I'm just going to get down to the nitty gritties because I'm just curious. You're allowed to go in the NICU and then play music or whatever the. I'm assuming you have like, a treatment plan.
I don't know how you do it, but I'm assuming that's what you would probably do. And then it must be very inspirational or powerful to see an infant's reaction just like it would be maybe an uncommon. Well, a not conscious or an elderly person who is not verbal.
[00:11:07] Speaker C: Sure. You know, I mean, it's very.
You have to be careful in the NICU because these are babies asleep. Right.
[00:11:16] Speaker B: Little or sick, you know.
[00:11:17] Speaker C: And so, you know, we. We pick specific things for where they're at. Gestationally?
[00:11:24] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:11:25] Speaker C: You know, if they're, you know, within a certain time frame, we might only softly play guitar and, you know, and sing a lullaby very soft for a short amount of time, maybe only five or six minutes. And the whole time you're watching the monitors, you're watching for signs of overstimulation.
But then as they get a little bit bigger, you know, maybe 32, 33, 34 weeks, you know, you can start, if the nurses think they're appropriate, incorporating some very specific, like a tactile massage protocol.
And there's, you know, tons of research about that and how we're trying to get the babies used to having positive touches because so often in the NICU, their touching is negative stimuli. They're having tubes and they're getting heel sticks every day. And, you know, it's a lot of kind of negative stimulation. And so with the massage, we're trying to, you know, kind of get them used to positive touches and get them used to stimuli that maybe won't overstimulate them when they go home, you know, when the microwave's going off and you've got older siblings that are making sounds and the dog is barking. And so we're trying to make sure that they kind of get assimilated. Assimilated.
[00:12:50] Speaker B: Have you ever had parents who, I don't know, refused music therapy or. I didn't want that, you know, I cannot imagine.
[00:13:01] Speaker C: But sometimes. And, you know, we try not to take it personally because sometimes, you know, they've. They've just gone through so much.
[00:13:09] Speaker B: Right.
[00:13:10] Speaker C: And, you know, we're. To them, we might just be one more person that's, you know, asking, asking something from them. And, you know, you know, we try to, like I said, kindly educate of what music can do for them and how music therapy can benefit. They benefit their baby's brains and overall well being. But we understand that sometimes a lot of their choices have been taken away. They didn't get to take their baby home on the second day or the third day like a lot of other.
[00:13:42] Speaker B: People that are just had a baby yeah.
[00:13:44] Speaker C: And so giving them that autonomy, we understand that sometimes this is a choice that they can make and say no. And that goes for a lot of our patients in the medical setting, is they've lost a lot of that autonomy. They kind of are told when to eat and when to bathe and all of those things. So this is kind of one choice that sometimes they get to make when they decline services, even though our best effort and as much as we know it can benefit them, they do. We respect.
[00:14:16] Speaker B: Yeah. It's hard not to take it personally because you think everybody likes music, you know, don't they? You know, everybody has some kind of opinion on the music and what they like. I mean, I would think, but I could be wrong. What about, you mentioned pain. I'm interested in that because I've had a show before on chronic pain, and I don't. Can you explain, and maybe this is just too detailed, but can you explain how music affects someone in pain? And sidebar. Are you ever on or your music therapists ever who are in school? Are you ever on calls for, like, if the hospital needs somebody, you know, in the emergency room? And I'm just making this up, but do you know what I mean?
[00:15:06] Speaker C: Yes. So I am not, because, you know, I have students that I go into the hospital with. I'm sure that music therapists who work in medical settings full time, like, I'm sure there have been times, I know there have been times where, you know, they'll page a music therapist because, you know, maybe there's a child in distress who's about to have an MRI or some sort of procedure done, and they need to help calm the child and distract them from whatever's going on. And so, you know, it's, it's always interesting when you hear, like, music therapy stat.
[00:15:43] Speaker B: You'Re like, oh, my gosh, it's really bad.
So, like, the program, and I want you to tell us a little more about the program here at UA.
Are there different tracks? In other words, you just mentioned medical. So do most people who major in music therapy want to be in a school setting, or do they want to be in a medical setting? Like, what is the most popular setting? And just name some of the settings.
[00:16:10] Speaker C: Sure. So that's a good question. But really, it depends. You know, all of our students have different interests and different populations that they really gravitate towards now they're required to have experience with different populations as part of their coursework.
You know, they're required to work or to, you know, have a semester working in the medical field, they're required to work with mental health, with children, older adults. And so unique to the University of Alabama is that our students have a lot of clinical experience before they even get to their internship, which is a requirement after, you know, ua. So, you know.
[00:16:59] Speaker B: And that's just. And. Excuse me, that's just for a bachelor's degree.
[00:17:03] Speaker C: Yes, ma'am.
[00:17:04] Speaker B: Whoa. That's impressive.
[00:17:05] Speaker C: Yes, they have. They get a lot of clinical hours and, like, hands on time with. With patients and clients. So we are, you know, like I said, in the medical field, we're at DCH. We serve palliative care.
We serve in, you know, in the NICU, like I mentioned. And we've been on the oncology floor. We've been on the pediatric floor, Noland, which is a, like, acute chronic care.
[00:17:36] Speaker B: I was just there last night visiting a friend. Yeah.
Do you. How do you. And we need to take a break. I totally forgot. This is why I miss Katherine so much, because she helps me. So after this question, I'm going to take a break, I promise. But how do you measure whether or not it's working?
[00:17:57] Speaker C: That's a good question also. So we have a lot of observational skills.
You're watching for, like I mentioned in the Nick Keeper, the premature infants. You're watching for those signs of stimulation, which might be.
[00:18:15] Speaker B: They start all suddenly.
[00:18:16] Speaker C: Okay, great. You're watching the monitors. You're watching. Sometimes they'll do a hand splay. Like they'll put their hand up and almost turn away from the music if it's overstimulating.
So for older adults or in a medical setting, you might watch if they have a furrowed brow or if their body is tense.
And if you're using music, which is going to be their preferred music, because that's what the research shows. We can talk about that more later.
[00:18:51] Speaker B: Oh, yes.
[00:18:52] Speaker C: You're watching for those signs of relaxation where maybe their shoulders will come down, they'll relax their hands, their face will relax and not be tight.
You're watching for steady breathing and calm, natural breaths rather than rapid or irregular breathing.
Lots of different.
[00:19:15] Speaker B: You can really tell just by visual. Not even.
I'm sure there's plenty of research studies where the brain. That's why I named the show I did. How can you boost your mood with music? I'm sure there's plenty of research studies where the brain, you know, the chemistry changes with, like you said, with either the music they like or the music they hate, too. I didn't think about that. So, hey, let's take our first break, and then when we come back, let's take an email question and see. I don't know if we've already answered it. Sometimes we already do, but if, we'll see how it goes. But we'll be right back. You're listening to brain matters on 19.7 the Capstone.
[00:20:05] Speaker A: WVUA FM, Tuscaloosa. This show is not a substitute for professional counseling and no relationship is created between the show hosts or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863 if you are not a UA student, please contact your respective county's crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
[00:20:47] Speaker B: You're back listening to brain matters on 90.7 the Capstone. I'm BJ Gunther and we're talking tonight about how music has psychological benefits. Basically, I originally named the show how music can boost your mood, but it does so much more than just boost your mood from the research that I was reading because I try to do a little bit of reading before each show, so I have a little more, you know, support for what the questions I asked. To be honest, my guest tonight is Dawn Sandell. And Dawn is the direct, let me get this right, the director of music therapy field education. So you're out in the field more than really, more than even the classroom.
Okay, this is going to be a tough question, but I got to know, okay, what do you do if somebody's just not good at it?
You know, they can play, let's say they can play the instrument, which you just said was required, something, either vocal or physical instrument.
What if they're just not clicking and good with it? How do you handle that for a student?
[00:21:56] Speaker C: If one of my students, so like I said, they are, you know, they need to be accepted into the school of music first.
I mean, we'll support them encouraging, like I said, encouraging voice lessons, for example, if their voice just isn't up to par or struggling with, you know, learning guitar, piano, you know, we will encourage them to take additional lessons. You know, whether group.
[00:22:25] Speaker B: You'll work with them?
[00:22:26] Speaker C: We'll work with them. However, I mean, you know, we graduate quality music therapy students and they, you know, they have to disclaimer they have to be accepted into an internship. They apply for internships following their coursework at UA. And so, you know, we, you know, we try to prepare them as much as we can and get them ready for that.
[00:22:51] Speaker B: So that internship is not automatic?
No, it's not automatic. It's just like. It's just, to me, it's just like nursing school. You have to be accepted to upper division, even teaching education. The education, you know, the school of education, they have to meet certain. It's just like that.
[00:23:10] Speaker C: Yes. Yes. And our students apply, you know, all over the country. You know, they. They apply at children's hospitals and hospices and, you know, school systems and all over. So they. I mean, they have to interview as if it were a professional job interview. So good.
[00:23:30] Speaker B: It's the real world.
Let's take our first question. It's a comment. And she says, our family experienced the soothing company of a sweet music therapist when a family member was in palliative care at UAB. It was as much therapeutic for us as it was for our loved one. Such beautiful work performed by music therapists.
There is a quit. That's a nice comment. I bet you get that a lot.
[00:23:59] Speaker C: I love what I do. It's very rewarding. I feel like we make a difference in the lives of so many families and patients. But, you know, I also feel like, you know, it's so rewarding for me to share something that I feel good.
[00:24:15] Speaker B: Passionate about. Yes, passionate. You can tell. And, you know, what's neat is you get to see immediate results.
That's what's cool about it. I would think you'd get to see immediate results. Okay. The question. She does have a question. Oh, my gosh.
My dentist plays oldies on the speakers. Are there any music genres that are known for calming or anxiety reduction? For waiting rooms. Oh, I love this.
[00:24:43] Speaker C: That's a great.
Well, I will say that there is some research, I believe it's back in 2013, that said, sedative and stimulative music on stress reduction depends on your music preference.
So. And that's. As music therapists, we are, you know, we, we follow the research and we know that music therapy is going to be most beneficial using preferred music. So, you know, there might be this idea that, you know, we walk into a hospice room and we're going to play something, you know, soothing and calm and, you know, relaxing. And that might be the case, but maybe that patient's preferred music is old country.
And so we're going to play old country. If we ask them, you know, tell us about the music you enjoy listening to. And they say Patsy Klein or, you know, Hank Williams. Hank Williams, yes. Or Johnny Cash.
[00:25:44] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:25:45] Speaker C: We're going to play that music. And when you really think about that, that makes the most sense. You know, you, you are moved most by the stuff that touches you.
[00:25:55] Speaker B: That's exactly right. We don't have in, I was just thinking while you were talking, we don't have any music or anything playing in our waiting room here at the counseling center. I don't know why. Now I'm going to ask that of our director. But, you know, it might not be, I don't know if it would be good or bad to like, play something in the waiting room just based on what you, the answer you just gave, you know, like, is it going to make somebody more anxious if they don't like old country music? You know, I mean, and I don't think even if you did like music instrumental, you know, I think that would probably be safer. Yeah.
[00:26:36] Speaker C: Research that talks about how classical music sometimes has really positive effects on studying. You know, if you listen to classical music that's like 60 beats per minute and, you know, just the way that it's composed sometimes can help with focus and stimulating parts of your brain so it's good for memory retention. But I don't know that that's true. You know, like a no all end all of, for everybody, you know, it might be over stimulating for.
[00:27:07] Speaker B: Yeah, it could be. I think it's subjective, definitely. So that might be one of the reasons we don't do it. But most, you know, if you think about it, though, I would, most waiting rooms, when you do go to the doctor or whatever, they do have music playing, if you think about it or something in the background, very rarely is it just completely silent. Yeah. Yeah. What about, do you know what specifically types of music help with certain, I guess, illnesses or ailments? Like, do you know, what kinds of music, do you all teach this at UA? What kinds of music helps specifically with stress? What kind of music helps specifically to make you feel happy? What kind of music helps specifically with pain? If it's going to be subjective, though, what if somebody's not able to verbalize that?
[00:28:00] Speaker C: Sure. So again, it really goes to music preference.
And if they prefer rock or jazz or classical or whatever, that's going to be the most effective for them.
Pain management, sometimes extra sound can increase pain. So we're always pretty careful with that.
Sometimes softer music, soothing, maybe even without the words, if you just maybe sing the melody on. Ooh. And do some light finger picking. So again, it's watching for those responses patients, and if they're not able to verbalize, you know what they want. Sometimes there's family there that can.
[00:28:47] Speaker B: That can tell you.
[00:28:48] Speaker C: Can tell you, you know, we might ask some questions. You know, do you like, if they're able to, like, you know, non verbally respond, like, nod their head, you know, do you like country? And they can nod their head yes or no. Do you like jazz? Would you like, you know, a hymn? And, you know, they can respond that way. Or sometimes even giving a visual where they could point. Sometimes we. We have our students make what we would call a song menu, almost have, you know, a few songs divided up under different genres. And then the, you know, the client might be able to. Or the patient might be able to point to the song that they want to hear. That's cool.
[00:29:27] Speaker B: I didn't think about that. That's easy. What about I, can music be used? Some of the information, the research I was reading talked about memory or for learning. How can music be used? Or can it be used for memory and or learning? Because that would benefit students.
[00:29:48] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:29:49] Speaker C: So music is one of the few things in our world that stimulates all areas of our brain or most of the areas of our brain at the same time, which is why it can be so effective for memory and.
[00:30:08] Speaker B: Dementia. Even like memory. I'm going even as far as Alzheimer's or even somebody who's had. I have had students who have had numerous concussions and or traumatic brain injuries, but we've never talked about music therapy. I really want to try to make an effort to mention that.
[00:30:29] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:30:30] Speaker B: Not just to all of my students, but specifically for those students who've had injuries somehow.
[00:30:35] Speaker C: Right, right. And we've worked in the past with the Alabama Head injury Foundation who, you know, patients that have, they call them consumers there, but consumers that have been, like, five years removed from their injury and.
Yeah. Trying to kind of work through, you know, some of their areas of needs, whether it's working on, like, some executive functioning skills lost because of their injury or even some of their motor skills that, you know, were impeded from their accident.
[00:31:14] Speaker B: Right.
[00:31:16] Speaker A: It's.
[00:31:17] Speaker C: I mean, it's. There's so much research, it's hard to even, you know, go and break it down.
[00:31:23] Speaker B: Well, and I've got so many questions with regards to students because do you think it helps?
And maybe I don't want to put you on the spot any more than I already have, but can you recommend, like, for the students who do listen to the show, what would be something good to study by? Is there any kind of music that would be good to listen to? That really promotes that. There's research that science that backs this up that really helps with either memory, memorization or comprehension.
[00:31:59] Speaker C: Even now, I've read some things about classical music being good for that because of the way it's composed and the complexity of it.
Now, again, you know, there's also research that talks about preferences. So, you know, maybe. Maybe listening to music that you enjoy puts you in a better mood and decreases your stress so that you're better, better able to focus and retain better mood. And, you know, during your, your studies, I always think that music without words helps me more.
[00:32:36] Speaker B: Me, too.
[00:32:37] Speaker C: Stay focused because I don't get distracted with the words. I've read some information on that for going to sleep as well. Like when you're trying to go to sleep at night listening to music without words because your brain is kind of processing that language when you're trying to go to sleep.
[00:32:52] Speaker B: Totally.
[00:32:54] Speaker C: I was, you know, choose instrumental music, even if it's like, instrumental versions of my favorite pop songs or country.
[00:33:01] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, that's a good idea.
[00:33:03] Speaker C: Or focus. But I don't know that that's, you know, true for everybody.
[00:33:07] Speaker B: What about, I have had students in the past, and I have actually had groups that I've led with teenagers who, how do I say this? They purposefully listen to sad music to make themselves sad.
I don't necessarily think that's great, but in some situations, you know, some situations, I guess.
But what do you think about that? Have you heard that? Do you know, do people ask that? The students ask that in your program?
[00:33:41] Speaker C: You know, I don't know if I've been specifically asked that, but, I mean, I think maybe the reason for that is because it's validating, right?
When you're feeling sad, you want to feel supported in that, even though being sad isn't a great feeling, like, listening to music, that kind of is that similar theme, like, validates you. I think it's important to be careful that we don't stay there, though, because as much as I believe music is healing and beneficial for so many things, like, it also can have a negative.
[00:34:24] Speaker B: It can make it worse.
[00:34:27] Speaker C: It's triggering and triggering positive associations, but it can also be triggering negative. Like, you know, if you had something negative or tragic happen in your life and there was a song playing during that time, like on the radio or something, like, it can also trigger those types of things.
[00:34:45] Speaker B: I can attest to that. When I had my big wreck when I was like, 17 years old playing Duran Duran, I'm aging myself, but I was raised in the eighties, greatest decade ever. Durand Duran. Savor Prayer was the name of the song. And when I hear this song today, it's like it triggers you, it takes you back. You know, it does that, I think, for most people, yes.
[00:35:06] Speaker C: And, you know, it's interesting you bring that up because that's related to some of the work we do with older adults. You mentioned dementia and Alzheimer's, the ability that they have to remember songs from their I, their, you know, early years, their teen years, their early twenties, and even the music that their parents and grandparents listened to. I mean, they can remember all the words to these songs from the 1920s, 1930s, but they might struggle with remembering, you know, a conversation you had five minutes ago or even remembering some of their loved ones. And I think, you know, it's just a testament, one of how music does kind of impact your brain so emphatically.
[00:35:54] Speaker B: Better word, it leaves an imprint, literally.
[00:35:57] Speaker C: And that's what we use to really interact and kind of engage with the older adults is those songs that they remember and that they have positive associations with, that we can engage in conversations and trigger positive memories and associations and reminiscence types.
[00:36:18] Speaker B: Reminisce. Yeah, that was the word that I was thinking, too. It's great reminiscence for them to take them back a little bit. So. Okay, let's take another break. I'm trying to remember. If you have any questions for us or you have any ideas for upcoming show topics for brain matters, email those to me at brainmattersradiovuafm ua.edu. but right now we're going to take our second break, and when we come back, we've got more email questions for our guests, so stay, stay tuned. We'll be right back. You're listening to brain matters on 90.7 the Capstone.
[00:37:01] Speaker A: WVUAFM Tuscaloosa this show is not a substitute for professional counseling, and no relationship is created between the show hosts or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863 if you are not a UA student, please contact your respective county's crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
[00:37:43] Speaker B: Hey, you're back listening to brain matters on 90.7 the Capstone. We're talking. I'm Doctor BJ Gunther, by the way, if you don't know, but we're talking tonight with Dawn Sandel. And Dawn is the director of the music therapy program, the field education program here at UA, which is fascinating, you know, after talking to you, it seems like a challenging program to get into. And I bet it's very, I bet you have to be very selective because how many students do you allow into the program? Is it just unlimited or is there a limit?
[00:38:19] Speaker C: I don't know that we have a cap of students.
You know, we like to give our students individualized attention, of course, because of the nature of our work. I mean, it's very intimate. When you have, when you're a junior and your placement is at hospice, for example, or you're working in, you know, palliative care or adults with disabilities, I mean, these can be pretty intense, you know, emotionally, physically, cognitively challenging clinical placements for our students. And so, you know, those are things that we want to make sure that we're giving our students the, you know, the support they need to learn how to navigate these sites. But we don't have a cap, I don't think, on our program, you know, we welcome people to.
[00:39:10] Speaker B: Yeah, it's not like a graduate program where there sometimes is a cap.
[00:39:14] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:39:15] Speaker B: But what you describe it does almost sound like a level of a graduate program because you do have to meet certain criteria. And then you, like you mentioned early on in the show, you have to do certain things to get the internship. It's not just a given.
[00:39:34] Speaker C: Right? Yes. You have to have, you know, sound, music skills. And of course, like I said, we'll take classes and we'll help you develop those. But, you know, on top of all of your general music courses, then you get into psychology classes because that's an element of music therapy and anatomy and physiology because obviously we're learning how music affects our brains and our bodies.
And so then you kind of, your music therapy courses sort of combine all of those things. Like how do you take all that you've learned as a musician and all that you've learned in your extraneous classes like biology and psychology and mesh those into music therapy to you?
[00:40:16] Speaker B: Do you have to have, would you say that the student needs a certain personality demeanor to be successful? Do you know what I mean?
[00:40:27] Speaker C: Yes.
I mean, our students have various personalities. I mean, we have some that are outgoing, you know, and chatty and you could talk to a rock, probably.
We have others that are more reserved and I think, you know, but the benefit of being at UA and having the clinical experiences throughout your time is that you kind of, you get to experiment with populations that you may be best suited with.
[00:41:02] Speaker B: Okay.
And you can find your fit.
[00:41:06] Speaker C: Right. If you like high energy and you're great at being flexible and thinking on your toes and playful, like, you might be really well suited for working with children. But if, you know, you tend to be more calm and a little more methodical and you like the more intimate setting, like one on one, you might be more suited for medical or for hospice, end of life care. But then there's some that, I mean, they love it all and maybe they go into private practice and then you get a little bit. You get a little bit.
[00:41:41] Speaker B: Everything. Yeah. It's like a box of chocolate. Chocolates.
[00:41:44] Speaker C: I don't think there's one personality. You do have to have some really good self awareness and some good observational skills. Like I said, like you have to be aware of, but you have to be able to read a room sometimes.
[00:41:57] Speaker B: And I think some of that probably is instinct, but that's why they're in school too, because I think you can. That is like your job to identify that and point that out to a student. I would. I would have imagine.
[00:42:10] Speaker C: Right. Because we serve so many, you know, ages and so many different types of people that you kind of have to learn how to talk to everybody and, you know, and build rapport with people quickly.
[00:42:23] Speaker B: And families too. Not just the consumer or the patient. Absolutely. Families too. Okay. Another email question we've got. It's a long one and we've already really kind of answered it. She asked about the positive music as opposed to there's people who listen to angry or sad music, which we just talked about. But another question she has. A lot of people listen to music while working, which we mentioned that a little bit. Is there a certain type of music that's more beneficial to getting work done or is it just a distraction? And we kind of answered that just a little bit. I know studies show doing two things at once actually just makes your brain work harder and leads to less perfect outcome for whatever you're working on. So you kind of touched on that already. It can be distracting.
[00:43:12] Speaker C: Yeah, I think it works. I think it really does depend on the individual. You know, things that I might find to be distracting or overstimulating may not be the same for another person. I mean, my husband and I are good examples of this. So the music that he likes to listen to when he's coming home from work and we're cooking in the kitchen, totally different than the music that I want. Like he likes the kind of indie introspective you know, and I'm like, that makes me want to sit and cry. I don't want that. I want up being just stuff that, you know, positive associations with growing up.
So I just think that's such a prime example of what one person loves and is going to be better focus.
[00:44:00] Speaker B: It just goes back to what your preference is. It always does. The next question, the last email question.
Any research on the impact of music therapy on college student population or in a college counseling setting and what's. We kind of answered a little bit about college student population, but we don't have a music therapist here at the counseling center. Have you ever placed a student at a counseling, not just our counseling center, but at a counseling center. Would that be an appropriate setting to use? You know, I can think of some students I see who I really, after talking with you, I really think they would benefit from music therapy. And it might sound silly because they're not injured. You know, they're not like in hospice necessarily. They're not, you know, they don't meet certain criteria, but I still think it would be so beneficial.
[00:44:54] Speaker C: No, absolutely. I'm glad you brought that up, actually, because one of the, you know, populations we do work with that some of our students are placed is in mental health. So, you know, we send our students once a week to North harbor and we work with the high risk group there.
And so, you know, in that group, we're promoting, you know, socialization and working on coping skills.
What do you do when you're feeling overwhelmed and how can you use music in those moments to help you not spiral? And so sometimes we'll do a lyric analysis where we'll bring in a song and we'll talk through the lyrics.
[00:45:38] Speaker B: And, I mean, that's a good idea. That's a very good idea. Yeah, I've done that with students before, too, because they've brought up a song that meant something to them for whatever reason, and we kind of, we dissect it basically. It's fun.
[00:45:54] Speaker C: Yeah. You know, you can, you can talk through the lyrics and talk about, you know, you know, tease, tease the lyrics out and how that might help with coping skills.
But you can also, you know, pair music with breathing exercises and, and just general stretching and cardio exercise.
Those things all release dopamine in your brain.
Music in and of itself releases dopamine, but then you can pair it with those other things to really help you work on those coping skills.
So, yeah, I absolutely think that our students, it might be a good fit for the counseling center that would be cool.
[00:46:36] Speaker B: I might need to connect you with our executive director. Our clinical coordinator probably would be the person to talk because we have students here for, you know, counselor ed, social work, and psychology graduate students. But we've never had. We've never, like, kind of expanded to music therapy or any other of the healthcare, I guess you would say, professions.
[00:47:01] Speaker C: Right. And we do a lot of co treating with other disciplines. You know, I used to work at the rise center on campus, which is an inclusion preschool, and I co treated a lot with the physical therapist, the occupational therapist, the speech language pathologist. But, you know, that happens across a lot of the settings as well. We do a lot of co treating. When I was at hospice, I did my internship at a hospice and then worked there afterwards. And we co treated a lot with the family support counselor, the chaplain.
[00:47:32] Speaker B: Like a team.
[00:47:33] Speaker C: As a team. Right. It was a very, like, interdisciplinary approach to patient care.
[00:47:39] Speaker B: So there's a lot of. It sounds like, to me, there's a lot of flexibility as a music therapist.
[00:47:47] Speaker C: There is, you know, like I said, our students get a lot of clinical experience, and it really helps them kind of find the areas that they are the best fit. And, you know, if you kids aren't your thing, that's fine. You might love.
[00:48:06] Speaker B: There's a lot of other people who need.
[00:48:07] Speaker C: It might be the, you know, a shining music therapist.
[00:48:11] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:48:11] Speaker C: With that population.
[00:48:12] Speaker B: That's so cool. I have a lot of students who struggle with sleep issues. And next week, our show is actually on sleep deprivation in college students because it's. It's ridiculous. It's just ridiculous. And the level that it's gotten to. And one of the questions I had scribbled down is, can you talk about, you know, how music can be utilized as a safe and effective and affordable remedy for insomnia?
[00:48:43] Speaker C: So I think one thing to keep in mind is, you know, how you're kind of preparing to get to sleep and kind of setting up your environment that way. And it might take some time on the front end, but using music, like, over time to get to a deep sleep. So we use something in music therapy called the ISO principle, which is where you kind of match where the patient is with the music. So if you walk into a room and they are agitated, we wouldn't play something slow and soft to begin with, which might be kind of counterintuitive.
[00:49:26] Speaker B: Yeah, that sounds opposite of what I would think.
[00:49:28] Speaker C: Yeah. Oh, they're stressed out. Like, they look, you know, really anxious or whatever. I'm going to play something soothing. But what the research has shown is that with ISa principle, you kind of match where they are. So I would probably play something that's faster and I'd play maybe a little bit more, you know, of a loud strum, quick strum pattern and kind of match that feeling that they're having. And then over the time that I'm with them, you chain the songs together. So I'd play a faster song and then I'd go directly into. Into another song and maybe play it a little bit softer, a little bit slower, and then I chain it to another song and slowly kind of destimulate that environment. So you fascinating them musically, and then across the course of, I mean, ten minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes, it depends on the situation. But, you know, eventually you might be finger picking, and then you'll take out the guitar completely in the words, and then you just end on singing. Ooh. And so I think that college students, anybody, really could kind of think through that and how you might structure a playlist to kind of emulate that same idea. So it might be that you start with something faster and then the next song after that might be a little bit slower and then a little bit slower and a little bit slower until maybe at the end of your playlist, it's maybe just instrumental music of something you like to listen to.
And the same opposite could be true. You could go the opposite way where if you struggle to get up and go in, in the morning, you might start with something easy until, you know, that final minute, final few minutes of when you need to be out the door and then you're jamming on something.
[00:51:11] Speaker B: That I think some people naturally do that. Like, they don't even know what they're doing, but it's what you're talking about, it just. It's almost like they know what they need.
[00:51:20] Speaker C: That's true.
[00:51:21] Speaker B: This is amazing.
You know, you mentioned playlists, and I was going to ask you. I don't even have time for another break. This is why I need Katherine back. But I want to touch on resources. Can you.
Does Spotify or any of the other apps, music apps? I can't remember another one because I listen to Spotify, but do any of those. Can you recommend any playlists that would be interesting for college students to use, or any apps or books or websites even?
[00:51:54] Speaker C: Well, I can't recommend any specific apps, honestly. I mean, I know there's the music platforms like Spotify and Pandora and things like that. There are playlists that you can google, you know, and they'll come up with certain things, like if you like a certain genre or, you know, instrumental country.
[00:52:14] Speaker B: Or just playlists for stress or playlists for motivation.
[00:52:19] Speaker C: Yes. I mean, they're out there. And I think, you know, the listener just needs to decide, you know, experiment and see what might work best for them and be open to music that maybe you haven't considered before. You know, we tend to, like, listen to music that, you know, we heard growing up. And, I mean, the beauty is that now with Spotify music platforms, we have access to everything. So if so, you know, maybe experiment with some different things and see what works best for you.
There's so many books out there and so much research. I mean, I can plug our, you know, music therapy association, the American Music Therapy association at www.musictherapy.org. you know, that that's information about music therapy. You know, in another.
[00:53:11] Speaker B: I bet they have a lot of, I bet they have a whole section on resources. Is there. Most of those organization websites do.
[00:53:18] Speaker C: And of course, we have peer reviewed journals, music therapy perspectives in the Journal of Music Therapy that has all of that great, like, evidence based research on what we do.
[00:53:28] Speaker B: The science backs it up. Yes, it really does. You know, I learned that in just a little bit of research I did for the show. So, hey, thank you for being on the show. It's gone by fast.
I feel like I didn't even really get to the questions I had jotted down for you. Sorry about that.
[00:53:48] Speaker C: Okay, well, maybe we need a part two at some point.
[00:53:51] Speaker B: Maybe so maybe something a little more specific if I could come up with it. But thank you for being on the show. I appreciate it.
[00:53:57] Speaker C: Dawn, thank you so much for having me.
[00:53:59] Speaker B: Hey, don't forget our shows are recorded and podcasted on the Apple podcast, audioboom.com and voices ua.edu. just type in brain matters and you'll find some of our past shows. And there's also a link to voices ua.edu on our counseling center's website at counseling UAE.
I always like to thank the people who've made this show possible. Doctor Greg Vanderwal, he's the executive director here at the counseling center. Of course, my producer, Katherine Howell, who's not here today, but she should be back next week, Katherine Ratchford at WVUA. She edits our shows and does a great job. And my guest tonight, Dawn Sandel from the UA School of Music. She is the director of the music field education program. And it's fascinating. Join us next week. I mentioned that our topic is going to be sleep deprivation in college students. I can't wait to talk about. I could talk about sleep forever because it's just fascinating how much sleep affects everything, just about. And college students sometimes really take it for granted and don't get the right kind or enough. And that's what they will really kind of. I don't want to say abuse, but they will not get. They don't understand sometimes that sleep is so important for mood and appetite and learning and memory, etcetera. I could go on, but that's our show next week, so tune in. Don't forget we're still on 19.7, the capstone you've been listening to brain matters. Have a good evening. Good night.
[00:55:40] Speaker A: This show was not intended as a substitute for professional counseling. Further, the views, opinions and conclusions expressed by the show hosts or their guests are their own and not necessarily those of the University of Alabama, its officers or trustees. Any views, opinions or conclusions shared on the show do not create a relationship between the host or any guest and any listener, and such a relationship should never be inferred. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, please contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863 if you are not a UA student, please contact your respective county's Crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
