Brain Matters S13.E02: Healing From Religious Trauma

[00:00:00] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling and no relationship is created between the show host or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective counties crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emerg. [00:00:42] Speaker B: It's six o' clock and time again for Brain Matters, the official radio show of the UA Counseling Center. We are broadcasting from the campus of the University of Alabama. Good evening. I'm Dr. B.J. guenther and I'm the host of the show along with my colleague and producer Kathryn Howell. And in case you don't know, the show is about mental and physical health issues that affect college students and in particular UA students. So you can listen to us each Tuesday night at 6pm on 90.7 FM or you can listen online at WVUAFM UA edu or you can download any app that you can listen to any podcast on. And I like the MyTuner radio app sometimes and just type in WVUAFM 90.7. You can listen to us live that way. Don't forget this is our second show of the spring semester and we don't do shows in the summer, so I've got probably half of this semester scheduled out already. But if you are listening and you have ideas for upcoming show topics, please email those to me at brain mattersradiobuafm ua.edu and I'll consider using your topic. Usually we no topic is off limits here really if it has to do with college mental health or mental health in general. So again, That's Brain MattersRadioVuAFM UA EDU I'll try to remember to give this out. Catherine's good about helping me and sometimes I just forget. So we'll give that out again. Today's topic is one that I came across when I attended the Alabama Counseling association back in November. There was a session on this topic and I thought this this might be a good thing to talk about. I don't remember ever having this topic for the show. It's Healing from Religious Trauma and my guest today is Andrea Matthews. Andrea is a licensed professional counselor, an author and speaker with more than 30 years. There's that word again. Andrea years of experience as a professional trainer and educator. She's here to talk with about spiritual abuse slash religious Trauma, what it is, how it affects people, and what healing can truly look like. And I'm so glad you're here tonight. Thank you so much, Andrea, for being here. [00:02:51] Speaker C: It's an honor to be here. [00:02:52] Speaker B: Can you give the listeners a little more information about yourself? I introduced you as a licensed professional counselor, but give a little more information about your background, your credentials, why you're interested in this topic. [00:03:06] Speaker C: Well, you said 30 years. Yeah, I worked in agencies. That's okay. I worked in. It's actually more than that, but I worked in agencies for several years from, in, you know, counseling positions and then raised up to program director and clinical director and then clinical consultant. And then I was in the process of starting my private practice while I worked with contract employers. And then my private practice has been going for really almost 30 years now. So. So yeah, what I do is I practice transpersonal therapy as well as cognitive therapy. And both of those are from a Jungian perspective. So if you know anything about the union perspective, one of the things that Jung was very, very much interested in was facilitating awareness of what he called a self with a capital S, that we use it as a capital S today. And he also equated that term with soul. He did not mean that in any religious sense, though he used the word religion to apply to spirituality as well. And so that's basically what I do is I try to help people. I have try to facilitate their awareness of an authentic self. So in the process, what we do is we run across a lot of issues relative to religion and. Or spirituality. And I see lots of clients for that reason who have been through some religious trauma or spiritual abuse, whatever term you want to use for that. It can be very devastating and particularly for young people. I'm really glad this is being presented to college students because right now we are at an unusual juncture with regard to this topic. There are so many people out there doing what they call deconstructing Christianity in particular. And what they mean by that is a lot of the tenets that have been seen as doctrine are now being considered to be too control oriented and too fear based and that they want to look at that differently and heal themselves from religious trauma. So this is a good juncture in our history with regard to religion. [00:05:29] Speaker B: And before the show, Andrea and I were talking about the term religious trauma. And you said you prefer spiritual abuse. Either or. And the way I came about in the introduction or when I was introducing you, I was, you know, attended the Alabama Counseling association and there was a session on religious trauma and that's what the presenter actually titled it. So that's why I named the show that. But it's you, you said it's more of a broad term. Spiritual abuse would be more of broad term. Whereas religious trauma is more associated with Christianity. [00:06:09] Speaker C: Well, not just Christianity. Yeah, not just Christianity, but religion in general. So. Okay, so there is a spiritual element to most religions. Yes, so there's that and then there's the spirituality. A lot of people out there now are saying they're spiritual but not religious. [00:06:28] Speaker B: Yes. [00:06:29] Speaker C: And so that can also apply to those people. [00:06:33] Speaker B: So. [00:06:33] Speaker C: And you know, there's. I don't know whether you remember the name Arthur Ray. Is that his first name? I think, yeah, James Arthur Ray. He. I looked him up just before the this because I can't remember names. He was running a sweat lodge in Arizona. [00:06:51] Speaker B: He was, yes, In Sedona. [00:06:54] Speaker C: Right. [00:06:54] Speaker B: I've been to it, yeah. [00:06:56] Speaker C: Oh, have you? Okay, well, he was an Oprah Winfrey healer, you know, and what he did was he set up the sweat lodge and he told everybody in the sweat lodge that they had to stay. And that's one of the biggest things about religious trauma or spiritual abuse is it's very control oriented. [00:07:16] Speaker B: Yes. [00:07:16] Speaker C: So he told people they had to stay and that if they didn't stay, they were not, they were not demonstrating that they had a mind over body orientation. And so they stayed in spite of the fact that they were overheated, that they were, their blood pressure was rising, etc. Etc. And three of them died. [00:07:37] Speaker B: Yes, they did. [00:07:38] Speaker C: He had to go to prison. He didn't go for very long, but he went to prison for a while. So yeah, it applies to that kind of spirituality as well. [00:07:48] Speaker B: What about religious trauma? And I'm going to call it religious trauma because that's how I've got the questions labeled. [00:07:54] Speaker C: Okay, that's. [00:07:55] Speaker B: Is religious trauma different from simply having a difficult experience with faith or a religious community? [00:08:03] Speaker C: Well, as I said, it's when, when spirit, when religious trauma occurs, it usually has to do with a fear based doctrine that is so frightening and so control oriented that the person feels that, you know, they are in imminent danger of falling off that cliff into hell. Then we'll just use Christianity as that example right now. Into hell. And that, you know, they're, they're really have to be very cautious and very careful about their thoughts and their feelings and their actions to the point that they are, I won't say they're obsessive compulsive, but they get very anxious and they get depressed. And they have very similar symptoms to those created by ptsd because it is that devastating. They are that afraid, and they are that controlled. And sometimes it amounts to physical trauma. Sometimes children and adolescents are physically abused out of religion. I have heard of cases where a father was quoting Bible verses to his children while he was physically abusing them. So it can go into physical abuse, it can go into sexual abuse. As we heard about all the, you know, drama and horrible things that were happening to children in the Catholic Church for so long. So. And not just the Catholic Church, we hear frequently, you know, we see things about ministers. [00:09:38] Speaker B: Yes. [00:09:39] Speaker C: Who are sexually abusing people in their church. So, yes, it can be that. [00:09:45] Speaker B: And hiding behind the Bible. Yes, I call it hiding behind the Bible. You know, as you're talking, I'm sitting here trying to think of the many students I've seen over 20 years that I've worked here at the counseling center, and I just don't remember ever having one particular case that I can specifically say that looked like religious trauma to me. I know there are plenty, but I. I personally can't remember or if it has happened. They either have not realized it. The. The client themselves have not realized it, and we have. That hasn't been, like, an issue. Do you know what I mean? And so it makes me think. It makes me think, wow, how many people probably have I seen that this might have been happening to. And I wasn't aware, you know, because it didn't come out right. [00:10:39] Speaker C: Yeah, it's. It in the very first. Or I do assessments that last, you know, four or five sessions with most of my clients before I try to give a diagnosis. I know that's not what insurance companies want you to do, but I don't take insurance anymore. [00:10:55] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:56] Speaker C: So, yeah. During that time, somewhere in there, I'm going to ask them, do you have any spiritual resources? And very commonly in here, they'll say, well, I'm a Christian or I'm a Buddhist or, you know, whatever, because they think I'm talking about religion. And that's possible. I am. I might be talking about religion. But what I want to know from them and what I want to say to them is, it's okay for you to bring that topic into this room and we can talk about it, because for a long, long time, I mean, even when I was in college, which was at least a century ago, it was. We weren't supposed to talk about religion, as in a counseling session. It was not. That was all supposed to be referred to a pastor and Then pastors started getting sued because they weren't licensed to do counseling. [00:11:47] Speaker B: That's right. [00:11:47] Speaker C: And so that has shifted dramatically. And so now, in fact, there's many, many scholarly articles out there telling us that if we don't address this area, we haven't done a complete assessment. So that question will need to be asked. And that's one of the workshops I teach, is about assessment and spiritual abuse. So does mean assessment, but it also means being willing to talk about what that's like for them, tell me about what your experience has been with your religion. And every now and then they'll tell me about, you know, how hard it's been, or they'll tell me, well, Pastor John says this and Pastor John says that. And one of the things I do with that is I say, well, what do you think? What would you say about that? Because that's one of the signs, symptoms of religious trauma is a person who cannot think for themselves because they've been told what to think and what to think and what to think and what to think and even what to feel for so long that their only reference to thinking is somebody else's thought, Somebody. [00:12:58] Speaker B: Else in authority, basically. Hey, let's take our first break, Andrea. When we come back, I've got an email question, if you're willing to take that. And then I had a question about the common signs. So I'm gonna ask you more specifics about that. So we'll be right back. You're listening to brain matters on 90.7, the capst. [00:13:27] Speaker C: Wvuafm, Tuscaloosa. [00:13:29] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling, and no relationship is created between the show host or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective counties crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room. [00:14:07] Speaker B: You're back listening to brain matters on 90.7 the Capstone. I'm BJ Guenther, and we're talking tonight about healing from religious trauma. Before we get into the show again, I want to remind you, if you're listening and you have ideas for upcoming topics, email those to me at Brain Mattersradiovuafm.ua. and I'll consider using your show topic. Andrea Matthews is our guest tonight. She's a licensed professional Counselor, also an author and a speaker, and she does numerous workshops. And I know you've done workshops about this topic, Andrea, because we were talking before the show and just before we went to the break, you mentioned one of the common symptoms is not being able to think for themselves, basically. What are some more symptoms that even me as a therapist should be looking for? [00:14:55] Speaker C: Well, common symptoms like anxiety and depression can be a result like, you know, any kind of symptom that has. Is relevant to PTSD is also relevant to this because even though the DSM 5 definition of trauma still hasn't been revised to an update that would say, okay, we can include emotional trauma as well. Usually it's physical trauma that an imminent death equated with it. Oh, yeah, that. Yeah. But that can also happen with religious trauma. So I don't want to negate that or minimize that because it really can happen. [00:15:34] Speaker B: Yes. [00:15:34] Speaker C: But symptoms with regard to anxiety, one of the things that creates anxiety is the inability to think for yourself. So I've got an internal conflict between, I, I want to do this, but I'm being told I have to do that. So how do I resolve that internal conflict? Typically, I get extremely anxious because I feel like I have to do this because Pastor Bob or whoever said I have to. But I got this other thing over here that wants to do this. I see that sometimes. Not all the time, of course, but sometimes with someone who feels they've been called into the ministry. They were called into the ministry, but they're extremely depressed and very anxious. And they, deep down, they really don't want to do this. They don't feel like they've been called. But. But the idea of calling has been so dogmatized, if I can make up a word there. It's been a control, an idea of control that they believe this is what they should do. And so they have this huge conflict, especially college students, especially young men. Young men. And now occasionally women will. Will, you know, be so confused and so depressed about that very issue. And occasionally they're willing to bring that into therapy to talk about. But you have to know that with religious trauma, there's also, don't talk to a therapist because they will make. They will secularize it. [00:17:04] Speaker B: That's right. If you have any questions, sometimes they'll shut down, you know. [00:17:10] Speaker C: Right, right. So, you know, what do you do with that anxiety? What do you do with that conflict? And my question will be, so let's tap into desire. And one of the ways that I do that is I will use something from the Bible about the term Yahweh, which if you peel it down to its lowest, you know, definition, it has to do with I am. That I am. Yes, that's one of them. But what is I am? And then it keeps going down to desire. So actually desire is holy and that I discuss that with them and I'll just say, what do you think of that? Because I might be wrong, that might be my interpretation. Well, what do you think of that? And they think, well, I've never thought about that way. And I'll say, well, why don't you go look that up and bring back your thoughts about that and we'll have a talk about it. Because there's nothing you can say in here that means that I'm going to say you're wrong and I'm right. [00:18:09] Speaker B: Right. [00:18:10] Speaker C: No judgment. So yeah, they often do. They'll bring that back in. Now we can talk about desire. Now we can put some emphasis on this side. That's not the have to side, but the desire side. And we can begin to look at, well, what do you really want to do? And is it possible that what you want to do is actually your calling? [00:18:30] Speaker B: Yeah, well, you know, I'm looking at the email question that I'm about to ask you and a lot of things are going through my head with regards to cults and I'm gonna have a show coming up, I think in March about cults because we've never addressed that either. We've never had that as a show topic. And to me, while we're talking about this, I feel like it, the cults and religious trauma, I don't know if they necessarily go together, but you sure do hear about them, you know, intersecting. And this question that somebody has sent, I'm sorry is here's, it's just a simple question. Advice for young adults leaving a cult. [00:19:16] Speaker C: Okay. Leaving any religion is often considered to be a time when people get abused. Yes, religiously, because definitely you're not supposed to be doing that and guilt tripping, you're going to go to hell. Satan has, has tempted you all of those kinds of things, particularly with regard to religion. But Islam as well, Hinduism, sometimes Judaism, sometimes the leaving is a very difficult thing. So with a cult, it. You multiply that by a hundred and so there's going to be your, your. You're being brainwashed, you've been. Satan has got you. You know, the, the leader of a cult very commonly will have been so good at brainwashing that it's going to be hard for the person to separate my thinking from the thinking of that leader because they not. Not just caught me dogma, they have brainwashed me. [00:20:16] Speaker B: Yes. [00:20:16] Speaker C: So it's, it's exponentially harder and stronger than just leaving the church or leaving a religion. So yeah, I would say to a person who's leaving a cult to seek out therapy and begin to be able to work on, you know, the fact of emotional abuse that at times could have been physical abuse. But the, the deal with the cult is the emotional abuse is so sometimes so wrapped up in we love you that it's hard for them to say, oh, this is emotional abuse. But if you can look at the inconsistency, there's I love you, but you have to do this. So that's an inconsistent kind of way of looking at it. And it's very controlled. And that is the abuse, the, the emotional mental abuse that comes with the cult says if you leave, you are in danger not just of like hellfire but of, you know, the, your brain is going to be taken over by these secular people or these outsiders and yeah, you won't be able to function. [00:21:32] Speaker B: And they're going to brainwash you, you know. [00:21:35] Speaker C: Yes, yes. [00:21:36] Speaker B: I feel like, I feel like though in this case when someone at least takes the step to come see a counselor, there is something within them that at least know. I don't know if it's full blown insight, but there's something that may be subconscious even to help them get help and know that maybe this something's not right. [00:22:00] Speaker C: Yes. And that's why I'm saying I want to, whoever wrote this email, I would like to just speak to you right now and say you have permission to, to try to find out who you are separate and distinct as an individual. [00:22:19] Speaker B: Because that and what I'm interested in, you know, when I have the show about cults is not all cults look like what you see on the ID network or what you see on tv. [00:22:33] Speaker C: That's right. [00:22:34] Speaker B: It's not all. You know, I can name some in the Waco, Ruby Ridge, Warren Jeffs, you can name some Guyana with Jim Jones, you and I remember that. But they don't always look like that. [00:22:50] Speaker C: Yeah, they don't. And that's why it is considered to be emotional abuse. Because it's covert. [00:22:57] Speaker B: Exactly. Let's take another break and then when we come back, I want to talk about religious trauma showing up years later, even if you've left the faith or left the faith tradition. We'll be right back. You're listening to brain matters on 90.7 the capstone. [00:23:24] Speaker C: Wvuafm, Tuscaloosa. [00:23:27] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling, and no relationship is created between the show host or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective counties crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room. [00:24:06] Speaker B: Hey, you're back listening to brain matters on 90.7 the Capstone. I'm Dr. BJ Gunther, and we're talking tonight about healing from religious trauma. And my guest is Andrea Matthews, who is a licensed professional counselor, speaker, and an author. And Andrea's provided workshops on spiritual abuse. That's one of the reasons I asked her to be a guest on the show. But Andrea, is it. I mean, how is there any way to estimate? I guess there's not. How long it would take somebody to come out, to be healed, I guess you would say, from religious trauma or spiritual abuse. [00:24:44] Speaker C: Well, okay, let's look at that from a really easy, easy example. Let's take somebody from the LGBTQ population. Okay? This is a person who has been raised in the church. They have been raised in a dogmatic kind of way by parents. They've been taught that who they are. I mean, they're not even going to tell anybody who they are, right? They're. They're hidden in the closet. And so. But they have learned that this way of being is a sin. It's wrong. So how many years is it going to take them to get past that? Enough to say, this is who I am, and I'm willing to take that risk. So what it takes is something that is stronger than the dogma. In the case of somebody from the LGBTQ population, it's probably going to be, I've fallen in love with someone, or I can't stand being in a male body when I'm actually a female or whatever that is. The, you know, whatever that is. I have something now that has taken me a step out of that old thinking, and that's typically what it takes for somebody maybe years later to get. Oh, well, yeah, that was. That was religious abuse. That was religious trauma. I did not know I was being traumatized. But look, I've had all these nightmares about going to hell. And look, I. I've had all this depression for all these years. And look, My relationship with my mom and dad has been damaged by the fact that I'm living a life that they don't like. I remember working with a client one time who told me, and he was like, in his 50s, he told me he could not go home without long sleeves on because he had tattoos. [00:26:40] Speaker B: Oh, my. [00:26:40] Speaker C: And his parents were like, no, you can't ever do that. That's of the devil. So, you know, is, how long does it take? It takes what it takes. [00:26:50] Speaker B: It takes. And that kind of transitions into. That question I mentioned before we went to break is like, can religious trauma show up years later? I guess you would call it delayed. Even after they have, you know, someone has left the faith tradition. [00:27:05] Speaker C: Right. The operative words there are show up. In other words, it's been going on all along, but now it's become obvious. [00:27:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:12] Speaker C: Wow. [00:27:15] Speaker B: Do you see physical or nervous system responses in clients who experience religious trauma? Like, what would that look like? [00:27:23] Speaker C: Well, it looks very much like PTSD or cptsd. So CPTSD would be more applicable here. And that is not a diagnosable thing in the DSM 5, but it is. Very many, many people are seeing it as very real. So what that means is that someone has been in an abusive environment many, many years, and they've been abused and abused and abused and abused for years. And that is the case with religious trauma. They have been abused for years. And so what? They're what? Yes, the brain changes with trauma. The brain changes with trauma. And so synapses are not doing what they've always done. Dopamine and serotonin are. Serotonin are affected. So, yes, the brain will change. Now we also have something we know of now as neuroplasticity. So what that means is that the brain. The brain can change again. So it doesn't have to stay in that state of altered brain waves. Let me say it that way. It doesn't have to stay that way. It can change. And so there is hope for people who have been through these kind of trauma, this kind of trauma that has been lasting over years to. To regain a sense of self, to regrain again, a sense of groundedness or maybe gain it for the first time, a sense of groundedness. And that's one of the things we're looking for more than anything is I can stand inside myself and be okay instead of standing outside of myself where you tell me what to do and who to be. [00:29:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:05] Speaker C: Now I can stand inside myself and feel safe. [00:29:09] Speaker B: Is it common for people to feel grief or loss even after Leaving a harmful religious environment. [00:29:18] Speaker C: Yes, especially when they, they lose people lose friends. I've had, you know, divorce is a bad thing in some, some churches and I've had people say that everybody stopped speaking to me when I got a divorce. Nobody would talk to me anymore. So yes, it that leaving can cause a great deal of grief and you miss the community you met. You might even miss the ritual. Yeah, those are very real things. And so what does a person do with that? Well, they might need to find another community. They might need to find new rituals. [00:29:57] Speaker B: How does I mean? Like what is healing from religious trauma typically involve in therapy? [00:30:04] Speaker C: Well, the basic goal. I don't like the use of that word because it sounds like there's a one, two, three step plan to get there, but. Yeah, yeah, there's not. But the basic idea is to be able to get in touch with me. I need a me. I need somebody at home in there. I don't. What happens is that there has been no internal authority that I can reference. There's external authority. [00:30:33] Speaker B: Right. [00:30:34] Speaker C: But there's nobody home in here that can say I get to make my choices based on what I think. [00:30:39] Speaker B: That's right. [00:30:40] Speaker C: And so that, that's what we're looking for is a person who can go in and reference that self in there and say, oh, okay, now I know what I want to do. Now I can go do this. Now I can choose that. That's what we're looking for. [00:30:55] Speaker B: And so basically self compassion, it's. [00:30:59] Speaker C: Yeah, you have to have a lot of self compassion to get there. Yes, that's definitely part of the process. And what that means is that it's not self forgiveness because forgiveness implies that I've done something wrong I need to forgive myself for. But it is a way of saying I know me and it's okay for me to be me. [00:31:21] Speaker B: Oh, that's. That take. That could take a while. [00:31:25] Speaker C: It does take a while. [00:31:26] Speaker B: Years. Years and years. How can someone rebuild a sense of spirituality or decide not to without guilt or fear? [00:31:36] Speaker C: I don't. [00:31:36] Speaker B: That's a hard question, isn't it? [00:31:37] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. I don't think you do it without guilt or fear. I don't think you do it. I think what you do is you have the fear just like you would with a panic attack. I mean it's very similar to that. If you're having a panic attack, you have to do some breathing exercises. You might have to do the box thing. You might have to do some exerc that will help you calm down. That's In a moment, a very, you know, tight moment that you have to do that, but over an extended time with regard to how to, you know, work through this, it's about sitting with myself. And one of the things I try to help people do is stay in the present. There's a lot of future thinking that goes on for just about everybody in America, but particularly with religious trauma, I have to. Particularly with the idea of heaven or hell that's way out there in the future. So I got to do everything today to take care of that. And so I'm missing today. There's an old saying in aa. I used to work in the drug and alcohol field over 30 years ago, and that one of the things, if I can use this vernacular, I hope this is okay with your students, but they say if you got one foot in yesterday and one foot in tomorrow, you're pissing all over today. Oh, no. So that, you know, you may want to edit that out. But I'm saying that that's what I try to help clients do, is to stay here now, be in this moment, and let's see what's in this room. And that grounding experience gives them a little modicum of peace, and they're able to go, oh, there's somebody inside of me that's okay, and can find peace. That's, I think, a real good starting place. [00:33:24] Speaker B: Well, and with students, it is very hard to do that because they're going 100 miles an hour here on campus, you know, and it's like they've got different social groups, including their parents, their friends. And then if they are attending a church here, a different, you know, religious factor there. So they've got several things going on. It's very hard to kind of teach them or help them learn how to be mindful and grounding. Yeah, that sounds like the goal. [00:33:57] Speaker C: Yeah. I think it's hard for everyone. I have adults and young people say, this is hard. You really want me to do this? This is hard. [00:34:06] Speaker B: And they use the word intention. You know, they. They use that word a lot. So I try to use that word, too, because, yeah, they. They get that. Feels like. [00:34:15] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:34:16] Speaker B: Let's take our last break, and then when we come back, I've got several more questions. I told you we wouldn't get to all the questions, but I picked out a few that I want to touch on before we leave. So we'll be right back. This is our last break. You're listening to 90.7, the capstone brain Matters. We'll be right back. [00:34:42] Speaker C: Wvuafm Tuscaloosa this show is not a. [00:34:45] Speaker A: Substitute for professional counseling and no relationship is created between the show hosts or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective counties crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room. [00:35:24] Speaker B: Hey, you're back listening to brain matters on 90.7 the Capstone. I'm Dr. B.J. guenther and before I forget, if you are listening and you have some show topics for us to try to talk about on air with regard to college mental health, please email those ideas to me at brain mattersradiovuafm.ua.edu and I'll consider using your show topic. We're talking tonight about healing from religious trauma. It's a fascinating topic and I think more people probably are going through this than talk about it or realize it even. And my guest is Andrea Matthews. Andrea is a licensed professional therapist and author and also a speaker who provides numerous. You provide. Had so many. How many workshops are you doing a month? [00:36:12] Speaker C: No, no, no, no, no. I can't do a month. I do, I do. I do. [00:36:16] Speaker B: About feels like it. Oh, it feels like it, Andrea. So because I get the emails from you, you know, have you how many books have you authored? Do you write articles? Do you write books? Talk about that for just a little bit. [00:36:29] Speaker C: I have written three books and one of them this last well, three of them have a spiritual component to it. But this last one doesn't really speak the words religious trauma, but what it talks about is this idea of being good that is so. [00:36:46] Speaker B: Dominating. [00:36:47] Speaker C: Yes, thank you. That's the word I'm looking for. Yes. And how that can be so damaging to people and it's really epidemic. So people identify with I've got to be a good person or else. Else. [00:37:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:01] Speaker C: And that or else could range the gamut. But so yeah, that book is called Letting Go of Good. I have a couple others that are more spiritual than that. And yes, I write a blog on psychology today.com that's called traversing the Inner Terrain and lots of articles there. I have over 4 million readers there. And so there's that. I've just started doing YouTube again and so yeah, there's that. And I'm busy. [00:37:35] Speaker B: You're busy all the time. Do do all People healing from religious trauma need to leave their faith entirely. [00:37:45] Speaker C: No. No, they don't. In fact, if they can find a way to remove the control elements of their faith, there's not a. I've got to believe it. This way they can stay in that faith. For example, there's a lot of people today saying that Jesus is not the model of this, you know, white guy with the long hair holding a lamb that we see in the pictures. He was a rebel of his time and he was against the religion of his time. And so people are beginning to look at Jesus in a different way than they've been taught to look at him. And so when they go to church and they hear about Jesus and what Jesus says, said and did, they view that from a whole different perspective. So, you know, there's no have to's about what you have to do to get healed from this. But there are also many people who are leaving and saying, I'm spiritual but not religious. And that is partially because. Yeah, that's partially because they feel the church is not meeting their spiritual needs. [00:38:54] Speaker B: Yeah. How can someone find a therapist who understands religious trauma or won't try to reconvert them? [00:39:04] Speaker C: Reconvert is a really interesting term. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, you're right. Reconvert is right. The they can. What I say to people is go to Psychology Today. Certainly I'm one of those therapists, but you can go to Psychology Today. There's a lot of good therapists in our area. And look on their site. Be careful with looking on their site. If you go. If you're being spiritually abused or, or experiencing religious trauma and you seek out a Christian therapist, that might be the time when you, when you kind of push back into the religion. So I would caution people about that. Now, that's not to say that there aren't some good Christian therapists out there. Okay. I don't want to say that, you know, that's not true. But I would use caution. Be careful. Ask your. Ask, you know, have a consultation before you actually start therapy. Ask them questions about what kinds of things that they want you to do in therapy, that kind of stuff. But Psychology Today has a little filter on the right side of the page. [00:40:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:20] Speaker C: And you can go down and filter through it and see what you're looking for, and those kind of therapists will show up. And then you can look through those. [00:40:28] Speaker B: Basically do your research just like a medical doctor. What should friends or family know when supporting someone who is healing from religious trauma? [00:40:40] Speaker C: Well, it's. It's it's more than knowing it's doing. It is. I'll say it all in one word. Listen, listen. Don't judge. Don't try to talk them into or out of anything. Just listen. Be there. You know, they are where they are, and trying to talk them into or. Or out of something is just another external authority. And that's not what they're looking for. [00:41:10] Speaker B: No. And sometimes family and friends, you can't talk to them either. [00:41:16] Speaker C: That's right. [00:41:16] Speaker B: The family, sometimes they're going to the same. They're in the same, you know, religion or religious, you know, church as the person is. Sometimes that can be risky. [00:41:29] Speaker C: Yes, absolutely, it can be. And if the family is being dominant, like in the case where I was talking about somebody who was in the closet earlier, where a pastor tells the family, well, your son or your daughter is gay, and you have to kick them out of the home because that then what will happen is they'll become the prodigal son and they'll come back to the Lord, is the way they say that. [00:41:54] Speaker B: And, yeah. [00:41:56] Speaker C: And so the family does it because their external authority says, oh, I have to do this. So what's happened is the. The parents have been religious, experiencing religious trauma without knowing it, and then, of course, they send their child out into the whatever, homelessness or whatever they're going to have to go through. And that's, of course, not just religion. Religious trauma in the sense of emotional abuse. It's physical abuse. It. You know, it's the worst thing you can do to somebody is say, okay, you have no more support. Now go find out how you're on your own. Yeah, yeah, you're 16 years old and you're out of here. Bye. [00:42:36] Speaker B: If someone's listening to the show and hearing us talk about this, what would you want them to know? What. What would be their first steps? If they're hearing this and they're realizing, oh, my gosh, this is happening to me, what would be the first step, Andrea, do you think they should take? [00:42:56] Speaker C: Well, that is the first step. That is the first step is realization, awareness. Oh, my gosh, this is what's happening to me or what did happen to me. And then, you know, if you can courageously say, okay, I'm probably going to feel guilty. That's why I said you can't do it without guilt and fear. I'm probably going to feel guilty. I'm probably going to be afraid, but I need to go get some help. Wow. [00:43:20] Speaker B: Yeah. And then take those steps like we talked about earlier. Before we close, do you have any resources for listeners? Any other books, any other authors, any other websites, podcasts even? [00:43:36] Speaker C: There's a guy out there whose name is Jim Palmer. He's written several books and he used to be a pastor for a megachurch. And he has, he left his pastoral job. He has now done what he called deconstructing Christianity. He has a Facebook page. Excuse me. He may have other social media sites, but he posts on Facebook regularly and gives people different ideas about what could be true as opposed to what, what they got, maybe got taught. And so yeah, I would look up Jim Palmer on Amazon.com Excuse me. And you know, look at some of his books. Yes, absolutely. [00:44:29] Speaker B: Any websites or anything that we need to be aware of your website. [00:44:37] Speaker C: I'm so sorry. [00:44:37] Speaker B: That's okay. No, we've been talking straight for a while. Is your website andreamatthews.com? is it just andreamatthews.com? [00:44:49] Speaker C: Yes, it is. [00:44:50] Speaker B: Okay. And it's with 1T. [00:44:54] Speaker C: 1T and Matthews. Yes, yes. I was trying to think. There's a. There's some support groups out there for people who have been. [00:45:02] Speaker B: That's a good experience. [00:45:04] Speaker C: Look on Google and put in support groups for religious trauma. [00:45:09] Speaker B: Uh huh. And they'll come up. I don't, I've never known of any of those to be around here. And to be honest, I would think you'd have to go to somewhere like Birmingham, Huntsville, Montgomery, some of the bigger cities to be able to find some of those. [00:45:26] Speaker C: Well, I've looked on saying for the support groups you might have to do it online. I've looked on a map where there are support groups, support groups for this and there's not any around Birmingham. So you might have to do it online. [00:45:40] Speaker B: Virtual. [00:45:41] Speaker C: Yes. [00:45:42] Speaker B: Thank you so much. This has gone by so fast and I still didn't get to some of the questions that I had. But I appreciate it. This was great. And for the first time of us talking about this, I'm going to incorporate some of these questions into the show about culture when that's coming up. I think this would be interesting to kind of overlap these. They overlap anyway, so I don't know how I can avoid it. So thank you so much for being on the show, Andrea. [00:46:11] Speaker C: It's been my honor. Thank you. [00:46:13] Speaker B: Let me make a few announcements. Don't forget our shows are recorded and podcasted on the Apple Podcast, Spotify, AudioBoom and Voices, UA Edu. Just type in Brain Matters and you find some of our past shows. There's also a link to Voices UA Edu on the Counseling Center's website. And that's Counseling UA Edu. I'd like to thank a few people who've made the show possible. Our executive director here at the counseling center, Dr. Greg Vanderwaal, my producer and colleague Katherine Howell, and my colleagues here at the Counseling Center. Of course, Gareth Garner, who edits the show for us, and the WVUA staff. And of course, my guest tonight, Enrique Andrea Matthews. Don't forget, we're on again next week and we're going to have another kind of fascinating show. I never really thought about this until I was reading something recently and I thought that would make an interesting topic. Chromotherapy is what it's called. What is color therapy? And I think it will be a fascinating show. So don't forget we're on same time, same place. And thanks again for listening. Good night. [00:47:26] Speaker A: This show was not intended as a substitute for professional counseling. Further, the views, opinions and conclusions expressed by the show hosts or their guests are their own and not necessarily those of the University of Alabama, its officers or trustees. Any views, opinions or conclusions shared on the show do not create a relationship between the host or any guest and any listener, and such a relationship should never be inferred. If you feel you're in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, please contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective county's crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.