Brain Matters S12.E09: Hope As A Strategy For College Students

[00:00:00] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling and no relationship is created between the show host or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective counties crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emerg. [00:00:41] Speaker B: It's six o' clock and time again for Brain Matters, the official radio show of the UA Counseling Center. We are broadcasting from the campus of the University of Alabama. Good evening. My name is Dr. B.J. guenther and I'm the host of the show along with my colleague and producer Kathryn Howell. And in case you don't know, this show is about mental and physical health issues that affect college students and in particular UA students. So you can listen to us even Tuesday night at 6pm on 90.7 FM or you can listen online at WVUAFM UA. Edu. You can also download some of your favorite apps. I like the MyTuner radio app and just type in WVUAFM 90.7. You can listen to the show that way. We've only got a few more shows, maybe one or two more shows if I'm thinking correctly. Until the end of this semester. We only do shows in the fall and the spring, so when we come back in January from the winter break, I'll need some ideas for some show topics. So if you're listening and you have some ideas and we haven't covered, maybe even we have covered it, but it might have been a while or we need to take a different spin on it or it might be something that's trending in college mental health. Email those topic ideas to me@brain mattersradiovuafm ua edu and I'll consider using your show topic and Kathryn's going to help me remember to give out this address when we come back from every break. Hopefully tonight. I've been excited about having this person on the show and to talk about this Kathryn. When she was doing research for shows, she found this idea and I just think it is fascinating and I'm so excited. Tonight we're joined by, I hope I pronounce your name correctly. Catherine Goetze. [00:02:18] Speaker C: Very close, very close. [00:02:20] Speaker B: Sorry. [00:02:20] Speaker C: Get the ski, get the ski, get ski. [00:02:23] Speaker B: I'm just going to say Catherine. [00:02:24] Speaker C: Yeah, totally. [00:02:25] Speaker B: Good because I will screw it up every Catherine is the CEO and Chief Hope Officer. I love that title. At the Shine Hope Company, an organization dedicated to improving lives globally by teaching scientifically informed and evidence based methods to measure and cultivate hope. As CEO and Chief Hope Officer, Kathryn leads a movement that brings the science of hope to life, showing that hope isn't just an emotion, it's a measurable, teachable and actionable framework that can transform mental health, resilience and well being. Through her leadership and passion, the Shine Hope Company is helping individuals, schools, workplaces and communities around the world learn how to intentionally build and sustain hope, even in the face of challenges. We're so excited, I'm so excited to have you on the show today. Thank you so much for being on the show. This is fascinating to me. You know, I've always been interested, honestly Katherine, in positive psychology. I try to find, and you probably know better than I do some conferences that feature positive psychology because it's a fascinating topic and I don't really talk to many colleagues who that's their main focus. So, you know, I'm sure you have. But thank you again for being on the show and tell the listeners a little more about yourself. Before we started on air, you said you're in Chicago. [00:03:50] Speaker C: I am in Chicago and it's so great to be here. And I love talking to college students. So even though I'm not, you know, talking to them directly, I am through, through radio. So which is amazing. So thanks for having the show. And I actually I also have lived experience so I have a suicide attempt myself. I lost my dad to suicide when I was 18 years old. And so I come at this from a strategic I have an MBA in international business and undergrad in psychology, lived experience and then doing global work in the field and working for big companies. And I'm a social entrepreneur. So I did the first nationwide cause marketing campaign for mental health through my company, my old, my other company, the Mood Factory with a line of light bulbs and started a nonprofit 21 years ago as well. Initially set out to rebrand mental health and ended up like finding how Finding Hope and the Science of Hope. And now we're really passionate and, and working hard to ensure everyone around the world knows how to hope. [00:04:54] Speaker B: So this is fascinating to me because the scientific part of it is what is interesting to me and the research and we're going to talk about that in a minute. Your mission, and I mentioned it in the, in the introduction is to improve lives globally by teaching scientifically informed and evidence based. That's important methods to measure and cultivate Hope that is powerful because not only does it give what you're trying to do credibility, you can actually show people where this has worked. I mean that means a lot to most people who don't understand what we're talking about. Can you break down what that means in practice? [00:05:35] Speaker C: Practice, yeah, absolutely. So first of all, my hope score.com you can go to myhopescore.com and measure how hopeful you are. And you know, when I started this work, I got into hope science 15 years ago because they were measuring hope and I wanted a suicide prevention program for myself because I've been told I'm at high risk of suicide and I knew the methods, you know, which are helpful at time of crisis. So restricting access to means. We want to make sure everyone knows how to lock up medications, their guns if they're having kind of suicide active suicidal ideations. And then also that everyone knows the crisis text line. So 988, the crisis tax line. [00:06:17] Speaker B: We have ours here at Alabama 7741 just in case you're listening and want to know. [00:06:23] Speaker C: There you go. Always know the crisis text line when you're in crisis. You know, it's important to have the resources before you get to crisis because when you're in crisis you can't think clearly or problem solve. And, and so well, I knew those weren't going to be effective necessarily for me and I wanted to get to work cause and so great. Thankfully I got really active in the global mental health space when I started my non profit 21 years ago. So I attended every conference I could, learned everything I could around mental health, taught every, everyone in the mental health space, everything I knew about branding and marketing and the need to rebrand mental health. And that's when I said all right, I want to get to root cause and started doing deep literature reviews. I have a passion for research. I want to know everything I can about things that I care about. And so dove deep into literature and found hopelessness coming up as the single consistent predictor of suicide. [00:07:19] Speaker B: Yes. [00:07:20] Speaker C: And I thought, well, and the primary symptom of depression. And I thought well, I don't know what this is. And you know, I've been diagnosed with depression and anxiety and PTSD and ADHD and addictions and all of these things. And I don't know what it is. And so I dove into learning about what is hopelessness. And, and again, they were measuring hope, but they weren't teaching you how to be hopeful. And I thought, you know, these, when I had my attempt, it was a momentary I wasn't in a depression. It was a momentary experience. And so, yep, learned and, and discovered so much. I'm excited to share more. [00:07:59] Speaker B: Oh, what, how do you define hope? You know, how do you define hope? Like I guess from a scientific perspective. And how does that differ from the way most people think about what hope is? [00:08:13] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. Well, there's different. You know, people think about hope as a warm and fuzzy thing and something you can't really define. Nothing certainly that you can measure. I came at hope from hopelessness. So I was like, what is hopelessness first? And it's both emotional despair. So you feel sad, anger, afraid, and you feel helpless to do anything about it. So it's a powerlessness about it. So I created what we call the hope matrix. And I looked at, okay, what is hope then? Well, it's positive feelings because that's really the opposite of emotional despair and inspired actions because that's really, if you're, if you go from helplessness, what's the other spectrum of that? And I thought inspired actions and hope. Scientists really define hope as the belief that the future can be better than today and your ability to make it so. So you know, that positive feeling, it can be better, which is positive. And the belief that we can make it so, so we have self efficacy so we can get out of helplessness action. And you know, when you get stuck in cycles of hopelessness, it's really that belief that it's my life is bad and I don't, I can't do anything about it. And so it's just learning. You could always manage your despair. You can always get out of your sadness, anger, fear, and you can always get out of helplessness into action. It might not be the action that you want. You might have to regal, you have to, might have to come up with a new goal, but you can always do something. And it's really about learning skills to do all of that. And that's where we built the SHINE framework. You know, I started with young kids, 7 to 11 year olds. I was able to prove that you could increase hope. And as we increased hope with our programming, we saw symptoms of anxiety and depression. Decrease their connection, increase their confidence, that self efficacy, that belief in self. And so to me that was, wow, there's nothing in the world more important than I can be doing than to understand how to teach the world really how to hope. Because I believe that is suicide prevention. [00:10:12] Speaker B: I do too. And here's the thing, in my 20 plus years of working with college students, I feel like when they make the appointment like that is a step they won't help. Even if they come in here and they admit to having passive si, suicidal ideation or active si, they have taken that step. And unfortunately, I have been on call when students have taken their own lives. And for the most part, we've never, as the counseling, we've never had that opportunity to intervene. And so this, this is, this is, this gives me hope as a therapist to be able to promote what you're talking about. And that's why I wanted you to come on, because I want to learn a little bit about how can I train myself too. And we'll get to that a little bit later. You mentioned working with kids as young as like 7, I think 7 to 11. [00:11:14] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:11:14] Speaker B: Is it. I think I know the answer to this. Is it important to start that early to set like a framework? [00:11:22] Speaker C: Yes, earlier and parents, but earlier than six. And we're working on programming for earlier, but absolutely, yes, critical. [00:11:32] Speaker B: So it's not too late to start something like this. Even as a college student, if you've never heard of like positive psychology or scientific research with regards to hope, it's not too late. If you're listening and it's not too. [00:11:48] Speaker C: Late or at 90, not too late. Any age you can learn how to hope. [00:11:54] Speaker B: That's a good point. Thank you. Hey, we're going to take our first break. When we come back, I've got a few email questions if you're willing to take those. So we'll be right back. You're listening to brain matters on 90.7. The capstone. [00:12:16] Speaker C: Wvuafm Tuscaloosa. [00:12:19] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling and no relationship is created between the show host or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective county's crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 900 or go to your nearest emergency room. [00:12:57] Speaker B: Hey, you're back. You're listening to brain matters on 90.7. The capstone. I'm BJ Gunther, and tonight we're talking about hope as a strategy for college students and it really does exist. I, I feel like some students come in and Catherine, pronounce your last name. [00:13:15] Speaker C: Jet Ski gets. [00:13:17] Speaker B: Catherine is my guest tonight and she is the CEO of a company, an organization called the Shine Hope Company. And I just feel like if this can be taught, more people need to be doing this because I have more students who are come in and they're pretty depressed. I like the word you use, despair. I never use that word, but it is such a good descriptive word. And, and they sometimes they don't want to take medication or anything and they just want to come to counseling. So I feel like this route would be something you can literally start that first session and go. We're a brief counseling center, so we have to act fast, you know, so talk about how it can really. How can hope really be taught? [00:14:09] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. And my goal is to get every college student talked. So we do have a, we have a course we license out. I want every student to know how to hope. I mean, you don't have to be sick. There doesn't have to be anything wrong with you to benefit from learning how to be hopeful. Because hope, you know, is so predictive of all of your outcomes in life. And it will help you graduate on time, it will help you stay in class, show up to class, gas. It predicts how, how long you live. So there are so many things that hope is, is relevant for in life, and it's so critical. So any. Everyone should be taught. And, and here's the thing about hopelessness, too. We all experience moments of hopelessness all the time. When I really broke down, what is hopelessness? Well, it's a sense of helplessness. So we're powerless to do anything. And it's a sense of emotional despair. So you feel sad, angry, for afraid. And we have those moments every day all the time. You turn on the news, you'll feel a hopelessness. How are you managing that moment of hopelessness? Is it in a healthy way or is it in an unhealthy way? And that's where we get into how we teach hope. So shine is the mnemonic for how we teach hope stress skills. So how we identify and manage our stress response and our stress hormones, we're either doing it in healthy ways or unhealthy ways. You know, I was managing my stress hormones in super healthy ways. And when you go through traumatic experiences, your stress hormones are going to go through the roof. And that's just, that's just how it is. And then when that happens, we often stop doing the things that give us our happy hormones, I call them, so our dopamine, our serotonin, oxytocin, endorphins. And we can get these all in healthy ways. So to me, it becomes this, like, I Manage my stress hormones and I get my happy hormones in healthy ways. The more challenges I have, the more I have to be doing things that are healthy for me that produce these happy hormones. And it's kind of counterintuitive because when we go through challenges, that's when we stop working out. That's when we don't eat the best food, that's when we stop sleeping. All of these things that are so critical to kind of restoring and filling up our battery. So stress skills, happiness habits are two things. Inspired action so when you think about hope being, creating a future, you know better than today and my ability to make it so well. We teach goal setting frameworks. What are different ways to set goals? How do we overcome our obstacles to goals? When do we need to regal and you know, one really interesting thing is motivation. We think that we're going to be motivated by the like thought of oh I should go work out. But it's actually we're motivated by doing something. So we have to start doing something before we actually get that motivation. Which is, you know, I'll work out when I feel like working out. Well, that's actually. Or I'll go to class when I feel like going to class. You actually get motivated to do well in school by actually participating in school first and then it feeds that cycle of motivation. So that's really the I inspired actions then N is nourishing networks. How we cultivate healthy bi directional networks. Why it's important where we go in times of crisis. So knowing where the counseling center is before you're in an actual crisis. Because when we're in that crisis we can't think clearly, we can't problem solve, we can't figure out what to do. We just get into panic mode. And sophomore and I was a freshman in college when I lost my dad. I was a sophomore in college when I left the college I was attending because I was just constantly stressed out and I wasn't getting support for that, you know. But had I been through a program that really taught me before I needed it what all of the resources were on campus, I would have been much more likely to use them when I actually needed them. Yeah, you don't wait till you're in crisis. So that's the end. Nourishing networks and then is eliminating challenges and all the thinking patterns our mind does all of these negative, you know, rumination, we internalize failure. We have biases, all of these kind of automatic negative thoughts. We try to control things outside of our control. And until we become Aware of the tendencies of our brain doing these, and then actually counteract it with skills and strategies, we can keep ourselves in that persistent state of hopelessness. And, you know, that's, that's basically for me, what it, what it was. I wasn't managing my hopelessness. I wasn't managing my fear, which developed into anxiety. I wasn't managing my sadness, which developed into a depressive disorder. And I was never addressing the root cause, my impulse control. Wasn't until I really started practicing this framework, learning these skills, getting really serious about it, that I became super mentally healthy. And I do all of these things every day. You know, it's just really, really important for me specifically, I know I'm at a high risk of suicide. [00:19:17] Speaker B: So I know I tell these students, like just coming in here, I think they expect when they come in for sessions, they don't really sometimes have to do anything when they leave, after they leave the session. And I'm like, no, that's when the work actually starts. So you've got to put some effort when you can. Outside of your question, is there a difference between hope and optimism? [00:19:43] Speaker C: Yes, absolutely. Optimism is, you know, the belief that the future is going to be better and, and hope is the belief that the future can be better. And I have the ability to make it so. So it's that self efficacy and that's where the goals, setting goals, overcoming obstacles, you know, having someone to check in was, was with and progress towards our goal. We're up to 95% more likely to achieve something if we write it down and we check in with someone regularly. We have that accountability person. So, you know, optimism is about feeling good and hope is about actually taking action and knowing what action to take and reframing when you need to. And I always, you know, hope is not about just being happy. Right. The emotional part of despair, that hopeless, you know, that feeling of despair, the sadness, anger, fear. The challenge is we often run from those feelings because we don't value them and we don't want to understand them, but they're actually super helpful for us. You know, anger can tell us when we've been violated or boundaries have been violated. Sadness can tell us when we're grieving something. And feeling that sadness is so important. Fear can, can be a warning sign or it can just be a faulty kind of message for us. And so it's not about bypassing emotions and just being optimistic. It's about really understanding our emotions, feeling our emotions, embracing them, and learning how to move through them in healthier ways. [00:21:17] Speaker B: Yes. What about you talk about, you're talking about goal setting. And one of my questions that I wrote down is what role does goal setting play in cultivating hope? You've given some ideas and motivation. That's where I see me a lot of problems. I have a lot of students who don't necessarily say that they're depressed. [00:21:41] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:21:41] Speaker B: But they are struggling with motivating themselves. [00:21:44] Speaker C: Yes. And they think the motivation happens, you know, but we don't realize that we actually have to do something to build that motivation. There's a great video about making your bed every morning and how that step of making your bed then builds that self efficacy and kind of builds that motivation. It's really important to build things into your day that get you on that path of motivation and knowing that the motivation comes after you do something, not before you do something. [00:22:14] Speaker B: Yes. You keep stressing that and that's important to stress. Okay, I'm going to ask my email question. I keep leading up to this, I promise. This person asked, would you mind sharing some easy, practical activities that college students can implement to teach themselves to embrace hope? [00:22:33] Speaker C: Yes. Well, I love it. Well, you can, you can start a group and, and take the hope course to learn about hope science. You know, to me the first thing is just to measure your hope to get a sense of where you are and, and, and it's not good or bad. It's just like kind of how much learning do you have to do around hope, how much practicing? But really, I think, you know, learning how to manage our stress hormones and in healthy ways is really important. So I think doing this in groups can be really helpful. Talking about what's stressing you out or making you sad or afraid and then what are you doing about it that's healthy and sharing these healthy strategies. You know, if you're learning to meditate or if you're going for walks or you know, what's working for you? I think we learn from ideas. And, and I loved our college course. We have both experts for each lesson and then we have recent college graduates that shared their strategies for stress. I think it's super helpful to do it in group. And the other thing is happiness habits, like how are we getting those in healthy ways? You know, drinking, smoking, violence, self harm, all of these things actually produce happy hormones. And so if you're in any kind of distress, doing these things can make you feel better momentarily, but they're not healthy for you. So to me, brainstorming with each other what you can do to increase these hair happy hormones in healthy ways or like, in short time frames, because oftentimes, you know, maybe it's just five minutes between classes or something. And that, you know, we don't think of that as building hope, but that does build hope because that gets us into our upstairs brain, which. Our upstairs brain is where we problem solve and come up with solutions. And so if we're really sad, it can be hard to get out of that helplessness into action because we don't have access to that frontal lobe, which is where our clear thinking comes. And our problem solving on all of those things are really key for hope. [00:24:36] Speaker B: That's a good reminder because, you know, for some people, I feel like I don't know either either. Even if they're not really depressed, they haven't been taught how to access that part that you're talking about, or they're just, I don't want to say lazy. It's not. That's not really what I mean. But it's almost like maybe they don't know how to access that, so they don't work at trying to access that. But the. Then they do take the step to come to counseling. So they're trying something. [00:25:08] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. They're trying to figure it out. And, you know. Yeah, we're not trained on all of this. We're not trained that our body actually can produce dopamine, serotonin, on its own. Even smiling, even if you don't. Like, even if it's not a genuine, you know, you're not. I mean, it produces the chemicals we need to feel better. And so it's, like, about being really intentional about how can I generate these for myself? Like, if I wake up in a cranky mood, I know that I have to do a lot of work to get my happy hormones going. And I can do it. I can, you know, in creative ways myself. Singing, drawing, art, you know, all of these. Going. Going to the gym, Stretching. [00:25:53] Speaker B: Yes. [00:25:53] Speaker C: Calling. Someone walks in nature. All of these things produce them naturally. [00:25:58] Speaker B: Well, I try to get students to have a happy list. I call it a happ. And I don't mean anything. I try to explain to them. I don't mean anything, like, huge, like going to Disney World. That's great. I get that. But I'm talking about just simple little things that I feel like people overlook. They just overlook. Noticing the trees changing colors, you know, noticing, like, the, you know, the weather or enjoying a cup of coffee that you like. Just the little things, like, what is it? So that when they do have those moments of despair, or hopelessness that they can see that list and access that to try to create what you're talking about. The physical dopamine, the physical hormone, happy hormones you're talking about. [00:26:42] Speaker C: Yep, exactly. [00:26:43] Speaker B: That's cool. Hey, let's take another break and then we've got a few more email questions and I've got tons. I don't even think we're gonna get to all my questions, to be honest. But we'll be right back here listening to brain matters on 90.7 the capst. [00:27:07] Speaker C: Wvuafm Tuscaloosa. [00:27:09] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling and no relationship is created between the show hosts or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective county's crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room. [00:27:48] Speaker B: Hey, you're back listening to brain matters on 90.7 the Capstone. I'm BJ Gunther and before I forget, if you have any show topic ideas for upcoming shows in the spring for the spring semester, email those to me at brain mattersradiobuafm.ua.edu Tonight we're talking about hope as a strategy for college students. And I think we forget about just the word hope connotes something that gives you some motivation. We talked about that in the last segment. My guest is the CEO for the Shine Hope Company, which is based in Chicago, Illinois, Katherine Gitzer. Did I say that correct? [00:28:29] Speaker C: Got it. [00:28:30] Speaker B: It looks German. Like my name. My last name has an extra E in it. It throws everybody off. So I used to joke with my father in law, I wish you'd have left that in Germany when y' all came over. He didn't like that very much, but it's true. Let's take another email question. Let me, let me find it first. I don't think we've asked. I don't think we've answered this yet. Do you find that college students struggle with the concept of hope and using it in their daily life ops? [00:28:59] Speaker C: Absolutely. I think everyone struggles with it and I think even reframing it is something I have power over. I mean, here's this very scary statistic. From my perspective, 57% of teen girls in the US identify with persistent hopelessness. That was put out by the cdc. This is teen girls. And then all these teen girls are going to college. And you know, what we know about hopelessness, it predicts addiction, it predicts self harm, you know, anxiety, depression, all of these things. And so our teens are not at full throttle. Here's the other thing. We're learning how to be hopeless. So we learn that. And there are a lot of things in society, social media, the 247 news cycle, you know, negative news overall, it can really train us to hopelessness. And so it's so important to just become aware of that and become curious. Curious. Well, what is hopelessness? And how do I get to hope? And how do I measure my hope? And how do I start taking responsibility for my own hope? You know, these, these teens are going to college, I think so, you know, so identified with hopelessness. But again, it's learned. And if we can learn how to be hopeless, we can also learn how to be hopeful and, and you know, owning your hope and becoming responsible for it and is just super, super important and it's ever realized. And I super identified with my hopelessness and I didn't realize it. I didn't know that I was doing that. And I, you know, would say I could ruminate myself into a depression. I thought, you know, I could only feel better from medications. And I didn't realize my body could produce all of these chemicals too. You know, I don't have a little. [00:30:50] Speaker B: More control than you thought you did. [00:30:52] Speaker C: Yeah, so much more control, you know, and as you said, it takes a lot of work. So, so it's, it's a simple construct. I won't say it's easy. I mean, every day I get up and I am, you know, I fight for my hope, of course, and I take responsibility for my hope and I do the things necessary to keep me hopeful. If I find myself getting, you know, worried about all the news, I turn off the news, I start, I stop watching it. I notice how things make me feel. I focus on why am I here, what is my purpose and what is in my locus of control? You know, we can, we can't solve the world's problems, and we can often become overwhelmed by everything that's happening. It's really important for us to find out, you know, what do we care most about? You know, if, if, if you say I don't, I don't know what my purpose is. And I always say, what are you like, saddest, angriest, or, you know, what do you feel the most about and how can you turn that into your purpose, into your motivation for making change? And focus on that kind of one. [00:31:59] Speaker B: Thing. [00:32:02] Speaker C: What you can control around that. So it's, it's super easy for our youth now to identify with that hopelessness. And yet once they learn, they have power over their hope and with their actions every day and what they do and start learning tools to get there. [00:32:18] Speaker B: It's, it changes. That's right, it changes. Give us, can you share like a success story from somebody you've worked with to give like a real world example? [00:32:30] Speaker C: Yeah, well, and this is, I mean, all over. So we have, I've been doing this all over the world for 15 years now. So. And it's amazing. And, and so I don't always, I don't really do the direct work much anymore because we create the programs and then educators give them. And I work with city leaders and mayors and, and all of that. [00:32:52] Speaker B: More like consultation work, I guess. [00:32:54] Speaker C: Yes. Yeah, we develop the programs, but we do hear, you know, you know, sometimes teachers to us and this, we created this new program for incarcerated individuals and there was someone that used it with you. They did a youth program and we did a study around it. And I was blown away. You know, this is, this is why I, this is why I do this and this is why I've created this. Because you can't, like, there's so much when you're young that you can't control. And learning where your power is, where your locus of control, you know, you can't control necessarily your parents or what's happening in your community. And so it's learning where is your power? So these youth were incarcerated felons, you know, had gotten in trouble and they did an eight week pilot. We were studying this program and at the end, I mean it was pretty, they all went up significantly in their HOPE scores and you know, said just amazing things about it. And, and I, the person running the program, I said, can you get feedback from me? What do we need to change? What do you need to update? So asked the youth and the youth said, we want to talk, we want to tell her directly. Which is amazing because that in and of itself is them owning their. What, where is their power? You know, owning that. And so I did a zoom with them and I was like in tears by just the feedback. Like, they were so identified with their hopelessness, they didn't understand they had any control over their hope, their stress skills, their stress response was why they were incarcerated. I mean, it's not, we don't learn how to manage, manage our stress response. When we're triggered, we have these Stress hormones. We go in our downstairs brain, we can't think clearly, we can't. That's when we are violent, that's when we turn to addiction until we learn how to manage that stress response. And all of them said without a doubt like that is why they were incarcerated. And had they learned these skills, like they may never have had gone through that. And, and, and so it was amazing. And I actually went out and interviewed them live. Then after that we did videos and they were just super, super inspiring. So it really validated what I know to be true. Like even those in the hardest circumstances with so many challenges all around them can learn how to be hopeful and can fight for their hope. And, you know, it's also important as leaders that we believe in every individual's ability to. No matter what their challenges, no matter what their obstacles are, our belief in someone's hope is as if we're in a position of power, oftentimes more predictive of their outcome than their own level of hope. [00:35:49] Speaker B: Yes. Don't surround yourself with negaholics. That's exactly. That's the truth. Recognize it and get away from them because that. You're exactly right. You need to surround yourself with people who are going to give you hope and help you work on that and cultivate that. About, I don't know how many years ago Catherine may remember this, we did a show on the happiest people on Earth. The Scandinavians, the Norwegians, basically because I'm obsessed with this concept of Hygge and I have been for years before it got real popular and there were sites on, you know, Instagram and all that. So we did a show on, you know, how Norwegians rank the happiest in this scale that they do every year. I can't remember who does it. You probably know better than me how have you studied Scandinavians and how hope is related to being happy in those countries even when those countries experience more darkness. We talked about this during the show than, you know, many countries do. Do you know what I mean? Like they have. Feels really long now since the time has changed. [00:37:05] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. You know, we haven't. We. You know, I, I've been a part of the happiness movement around the world. They. We haven't done enough work around hope and measuring hope as it relates specifically to happiness. But there is definitely a correlation and they did do a recent study in or they did an analysis of data that hope was like the best predictors of all positive life outcomes. You know, how well you do educationally. [00:37:37] Speaker B: Your. [00:37:38] Speaker C: It was more so predictive of how well you do than your intelligence. But it, it, yeah. Your health, how long you live, all of these things. It was a, it was a. Carol Graham was in it, in the study itself and with the Brookings Institute. It's a really powerful study on the power of hope. And. But yet it's just, you know, we don't study it enough yet. [00:38:02] Speaker B: No. [00:38:03] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:38:03] Speaker B: You don't hear it talked about as much like we were talking about it point blank, you know. Yes, yes. And if you're listening, Catherine gave us a website you can go to to measure your hope, I guess. My hope score dot com. [00:38:18] Speaker C: Yes. [00:38:18] Speaker B: I can't wait to do it. When we do it for the listeners who may be feeling discouraged. Discouraged. [00:38:26] Speaker C: Yes. [00:38:26] Speaker B: Or uncertain. Like, what's one small step they can take today to build more hope? [00:38:33] Speaker C: Yeah, great idea. Well, I think just taking your hope score and getting a sense of where you are is the first step. And no matter where you are, it just shows like that you can actually start doing work. So, you know, we have an online depression anxiety support group if you're really challenged, but doing one thing a day around your hope. Downloading the Shine Hope story template, starting to look at skills for how to build your hope. Super important. But I think the first thing is just getting your score and honoring yourself and, and you know, congratulating yourself for even doing that because it's a big step. Like first we kind of have to see where we are and then we can start doing things. [00:39:15] Speaker B: What about parents? What about how can parents and teachers and maybe even counselors help keep kids develop hope when, if, if somebody's listening and they work with. Not college students necessarily, but yeah, college students. If you're a faculty member and you're listening, what can you do in your classroom? [00:39:35] Speaker C: Yeah, well, you can teach it as a skill. I mean, we have a lot of programs with the Parents guide how to use hope language at home. We have an overview program that's available on the International Day of Hope website at no cost. You can download. Just start learning the skills and start talking about hope together and practicing the skill. In the overview is the. And in the parents guide is the Shine Hope framework and all of the skills within that Shine Hope framework. Practice them as a family. Start the conversation around it. [00:40:07] Speaker B: What programs or what other workshops do y' all offer and give the website, by the way. [00:40:13] Speaker C: Yes. So there's a lot of no cost stuff at International Day of Hope.org so that's International DayOfHope.org and then the company is the Shine Hope Company. We, I mean, we have a ton of programs. We have facilitator guides. We have a veterans program program for those in recovery. So workbooks, you can get programs for incarcerated. We have educator guys. We have a teen program that's a peer to peer program and it takes the SHINE framework and it's age appropriate exercises for all of all of these different populations. And then we have a hopeful cities activation. We're trying to get cities on board to become hopeful cities where they license all the programs and then do a public health campaign within the city letting everyone know it's available. The programs are available at no cost for download. I mean, it's, you know, we need a whole society approach to hope and a massive one. We're teaching our youth to be hopeless and we must teach them. [00:41:13] Speaker B: I agree with you. I agree with you. Let's take a our last break and when we come back, I want to talk about different cultures, how you're working globally. I've got lots of other questions. Like I said, we're not going to get all of them, but I'm going to try to squeeze them in. We'll be right back. You're listening to brain matters on 90.7 the capstone. [00:41:41] Speaker C: Wvu, uafm, Tuscaloosa. [00:41:44] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling and no relationship is created between the show host or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective counties crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room. [00:42:22] Speaker B: Hey, you're back listening to brain matters on 90.7 the Capstone. I'm Dr. B.J. guenther. We're talking tonight about hope as a strategy for college students. And my guest is the CEO of the Shine Hope Company out of Chicago, Illinois. But Shine, she is globally and we're gonna, I'm gonna ask her about that in just a minute. Catherine Getzky is my guest tonight. What are some, are there some cultures who are less hopeful? I don't know how to ask that. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. [00:42:52] Speaker C: Well, we now have the second worst mental health in the world, the United States does, behind Brazil. So I was just in Portugal. [00:43:01] Speaker B: I would have not believed Brazil. Honestly, I would have gone toward the some of the Asian Countries, just to be be honest. [00:43:07] Speaker C: Yeah, it's the World Health Organization just put out a presentation and the data, I'm not surprised. I mean, we're just. We are just so identified with our hopelessness here in the US and that's really the primary symptom of depression, a key symptom of anxiety and. Anxiety and depression, you know, make up probably 80% of the mental health conditions in the world or primarily. So. Yeah, I mean, you know, the good thing about. About hope is that we've studied it in different cultures and it's a universal construct that can be easily understood. A lot of people do think of hope like, spiritual hope. Like, I give, you know, I have hope in my God or whatnot. To me, that's a pretty disempowering, unfortunately, message to be giving people, because if you give your hope to God, then you don't have any responsibility for. [00:44:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:06] Speaker C: You know, making your life better. And we do have to take ownership of our hope. [00:44:11] Speaker B: Right. [00:44:12] Speaker C: And there, you know, we. There's spiritual practices throughout our Shine Hope framework and how they relate, like how prayer is a great stress skill, and yet there are also people that have been oppressed by specific religions, so may not identify. So it's about a universal construct that every. Everyone can have something in it that works for them. To me, that was really important, that it was super inclusive with regards to. [00:44:40] Speaker B: The Shine Hope Company. Can individuals get involved or does it. Is it mainly just for, like, institutions? [00:44:47] Speaker C: Yeah, anyone can get involved. Anyone, Anyone. And we're working on an app. I'm working very hard on an app. [00:44:54] Speaker B: Oh, cool. [00:44:56] Speaker C: Yeah, you can buy workbooks for yourself and, you know, if anyone can't afford stuff, just email us. We give it all free to anyone. [00:45:05] Speaker B: That needs an app would be great. I'm always surprised at how many students, especially with, like, anxiety and panic attacks, how many students do not have an app on their phone when their phone is with them all the time? That's their greatest resource. So an app would be wonderful. [00:45:22] Speaker C: Yes, yes, yes. By the end of the year. By the end of the year, we'll. [00:45:28] Speaker B: Have it, like, launched. [00:45:28] Speaker C: Yes. And it's just about learning the skills and practicing the skills. You know, one of the things that the youth told me that the recent youth that I worked with, they're like, well, these. Eliminating challenges. Like, I have all of these challenges. Like, I ruminate, I internalize failure, I try to control things. I'm like, that's the thing we all do. Like, our brain naturally does that for all of us. And it's just about learning that we do that and then starting to notice it and then use skills to navigate it in a healthier way. And instead of just feeling like, well, this rumination is just. I'm just going to go over and it just like. And just letting your brain run. [00:46:06] Speaker B: This is my lot in life kind of thing. [00:46:08] Speaker C: Yes. [00:46:08] Speaker B: You know, this is what I'm, I'm being. Or I'm being punished. So this is the way I've got to. It's like a right, you know, I want to say self sabotage. [00:46:18] Speaker C: Totally. Yeah. All of these negative thinking patterns. You know, our brain isn't necessarily our best friend and who. We have to learn how to like, you know, check it, you know, and, and how to set affirming beliefs and, and all of these things. So it's super important. Yeah. So the goal of the app is just to like, feed you these skills daily and like learn it and then practice that for the day. I mean, hope is a journey throughout life. You know, it's not like you're just going to take a course and you're going to be hopeful. It's like, okay, now you have the foundation and then it's about integrating it. Yeah, exactly. [00:46:52] Speaker B: How do you measure the impact of your program? Grams? [00:46:56] Speaker C: Yeah. So when we do studies, we do pre and post intervention. So we look at score and it depends on what we're researching. In the study, we look at pre and post scores. Like we did a randomized control trial in Northern Ireland initially on the work with young kids. And you know, we partnered with Ulster University there and it was amazing. And we did, you know, so we'd study it and then we'd get feedback and do focus groups and make improvements. So we kind of do that all along or where we can, like you can't always study stuff. You can't always have control groups. So we do where we can and we partner with anyone that wants to do research to help do a program. You know, you have to get IRB approval and there's kind of steps you have to go through. So. But that's all we do. And then we, you know, get feedback doing focus groups. What did you like? What didn't you like? What made sense? What can we do better? And, and then we look at hope scores and we see what's. What written responses are. But that's a super important of the process, you know, building hope. Science is doing scientific studies along the way. [00:48:06] Speaker B: It's a new. It's a new science. Right. I mean, when did the research on this start. [00:48:12] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, they've had the HOPE scale for a long time. CR Snider developed the HOPE scale. My work has built a bit on Sierra Snyder's work on hope. He was primarily focused on goals. So you have a goal for something, agency, so the ability to do something, and then pathways. So how do you get around those obstacles? And mine came at it again from that hopelessness. So there's that despair part of hopelessness. When you look at my framework, I mean, I think that's an equal. It's just as important in the equation. Hopelessness is despair and helplessness. And I wanted to sell for hopelessness, not just, you know, hope. And so it incorporates a lot of my mental health, my global mental health work in that the stress skills and happiness habits and. And. But so the science has been a long time and it's just now like there are a couple of people doing work on improving hope and training on hope, but there are different ways of doing it. Most of the people use CR Snider stuff. But again, I want to sell for hopelessness because it predicts violence, self harm, you know, and again, like, we are all experiencing moments of hopelessness all the time. We just don't realize it. And. And we're just either equipped or we're not. We're like, you know, unintentionally managing it in healthier ways. [00:49:33] Speaker B: Good way to put it. Managing it. [00:49:35] Speaker C: Managing. [00:49:36] Speaker B: Okay, so the app is coming up by the end of the year, you said? [00:49:40] Speaker C: Yes. [00:49:41] Speaker B: What's next, though, for the Shine Company? For the Shine Hope Company line? Are there new research projects? Are there new partnerships, programs on the horizon? [00:49:51] Speaker C: We want to get every city to be a hopeful city. So that's my big goal next year. And then I have a book I'm working on, very hard on. I have two courses, so I'm doing. Doing a course on hopelessness overall, just like, what is it? How do we navigate it in healthy ways? Normalizing it so we don't think of it as like, something's wrong with you or it's a disease. It's like to me, it's math. You know, math, science, hopelessness. [00:50:17] Speaker B: It's like a formula. Yes, like a formula, you know? [00:50:20] Speaker C: Yes. [00:50:21] Speaker B: Is this going to be your first book? [00:50:23] Speaker C: Yeah. No, I have a book, another book, the biggest little book about hope, which I wrote when I was living in Reno, the Biggest Little City. That's where we started the Hopeful Cities, where we started thinking about how we would, you know, activate a city around hope science and learning how to Hope. So, yeah. This book, though, is going to be really important for me because it's taking all of the theories, all of the research I've done, all of the experts I've learned from and how I've tweaked the stuff and built upon it and, and, yeah, and it's a different. It's a completely different approach than what we're currently doing in mental health. I'm a representative at the United nations for the World Federation for Mental Health. So we do October 10th every year, and then July 12th is the international day of Hope. So I'm really careful in how I talk about this, and I really want to empower people. I want to stop thinking of everything in so much of the disease lens. And, and, you know, sadness doesn't mean you're depressed. [00:51:24] Speaker B: Yes. [00:51:25] Speaker C: Fear doesn't mean you have an anxiety disorder. Like, these are all super normal emotions. [00:51:31] Speaker B: And we're constantly, we're constantly like, that's our challenge here. [00:51:36] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:51:37] Speaker B: And I remember when we started in, you know, when I started working here 20 something years ago, that was a real challenge to work with the medical. Nothing against the medical, you know, community, but developmentally we are different. [00:51:53] Speaker C: Yes. Yeah. [00:51:55] Speaker B: You know what I mean? You know what I'm saying? [00:51:57] Speaker C: Oh, absolutely. Yep. Absolutely. [00:51:59] Speaker B: If you could leave our listeners. [00:52:02] Speaker C: Yes. [00:52:03] Speaker B: With one message about hope. Good. [00:52:08] Speaker C: Yeah. Well, you can learn how to hope. Right. It doesn't matter where you are in the hope scale or where you're on the hopelessness scale. You can always get from hopelessness to hope. You can always. Can always, you know, get out of your despair. It might take a while to get through your sadness, your fear, your anger, and you can always get out of helplessness and into action. It. You may, you know, I lost my dad. I can bring my dad back so that, you know, if I stay stuck in that, it's going to keep me in that persistent state of hopelessness. [00:52:37] Speaker B: Yes. [00:52:38] Speaker C: But what did my dad meet? What needs did he met? Well, I wanted a mentor. I wanted, you know, someone that supported me along the way, encouraged me. So I had to find. Find other people to meet that need and what I kind of call regal. So, you know, there's always a way to navigate our hopelessness and emotions do not last forever. Sadness doesn't last forever. We should not be dying by suicide because of our grades, because of a breakup. I mean, these are, you know, these are some of the most common or because of bullying or what other people are saying. Like, we've. We have got to love ourselves. We've got to believe in, in ourselves. No one is going to love you more than you. And so, you know, are there, excuse. [00:53:22] Speaker B: Me, are there specialists who are trained in this that people can seek out? Maybe you have it listed on the website in some of the larger cities who are professionally trained in hope, in the hope science. [00:53:35] Speaker C: Yeah. Now, yeah. But hope coaches, that will be my next. I'm hopeful. [00:53:40] Speaker B: I know. I love it. [00:53:42] Speaker C: Oh my gosh. [00:53:43] Speaker B: Well, with the positive psychology, you, you can kind of maybe find somebody who has some skills in that, you know, so. [00:53:54] Speaker C: Yeah, and anyone can teach these programs. So, like, if you're having challenges, you know, download the three lesson overview and go teach kids. It's all scripted. You just print the workbooks out. You don't have to be trained in it. It's all scripted. So. And I tell you, the thing that's made it me the most, like learn the most about hope is working with kids where, you know, seeing them teach me and give me feedback about it. [00:54:19] Speaker B: So definitely thank you so much for being on the show, Catherine. It's gone by fast. It seems like it does every week, but this one really has because I still haven't gotten a lot of the questions that I have jotted down. But this is fascinating. The science is fascinating. And I hope people who are listening will research and go to your website because it sounds like it's just a plethora of resources. You know, the Shine Hope company dot com. [00:54:46] Speaker C: Yep, that's it. And yes, feel free to reach out to me, anyone, if you have catherine@the shinehope company.com if you have any questions or any feedback or thoughts or want to activate your campus. Suggestions, video suggestions, all of that. Absolutely. [00:55:00] Speaker B: This is great. Let me make a few announcements before we go and then, Catherine, if you'll stay on the line, I want to ask you something, so hang out just a minute. Don't forget, our shows are recorded and podcasted on the Apple Podcast, audioboom.com and voices.ua. just type in Brain Matters and you'll find some of our past shows. There's also a link to Voices UA Edu on our Counseling Center's website. And that website is Counseling UA Edu. I always like to thank some people who've made the show possible. Our executive director here at the counseling center, Dr. Greg Vanderwaal, my producer and colleague, Katherine Howell, my colleagues here at the Counseling center, and also Gary Gareth. I always get his name so mixed up. Gareth Garner. It's hard to say. At wvua, he edits our shows. And does a great job every week. Of course. My guest tonight, Kathryn Goetzke. I know I probably butchered that, but I'm trying. It's gotten better over the hour. I really appreciate you being on again. And don't forget, we've probably got one more show coming up to end the semester. But if we do that show, the topic is going to be about the thriving project and I'll leave you hanging with that. It's a very interesting project here, not here in Alabama, in another state, but it's fascinating. So if you want to tune in at our next I think we'll skip for Thanksgiving and then we'll be back the next week. So everyone have a happy Thanksgiving break and we'll be back. Thanks again for listening and good night. [00:56:43] Speaker A: This show was not intended as a substitute for professional counseling. Further, the views, opinions and conclusions expressed by the show hosts or their guests are their own and not necessarily those of the University of Alabama, its officers or trustees. Any views, opinions or conclusions, conclusions shared on the show do not create a relationship between the host or any guest and any listener, and such a relationship should never be inferred. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, please contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective counties crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.