[00:00:00] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling and no relationship is created between the show hosts or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863 if you are not a UA student, please contact your respective county's Cris service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911. Go to your nearest emergency room.
[00:00:43] Speaker B: Again for brain matters, the official radio show of the UA Counseling center. We are broadcasting from the campus of the University of Alabama. Good evening. My name is Dr. B. J. Gunther and I'm the host of the show along with my colleague and producer, Catherine Howell. And in case you don't know, this show is about mental and physical health issues that affect college students, and in particular UA students. So you can listen to us each Tuesday night at 06:00 p.m. On 90.7 fm, or you can listen online at wbuafm ua.edu. You can also download the MyTuner radio app and just type in WBUaFM 90.7. If you have any ideas for upcoming shows, please email those to me. If you have any topic ideas. We've got most of our shows planned out for the rest of this semester, maybe a couple of shows we need some help with, but I've got some ideas, but we won't do shows in the summer and then we'll come back in the fall. And I always need some interesting, trendy college mental health topics. Or we can do some of the basic I'm not opposed to doing topics that we've done before because things change a lot of times with treatment options. And just like I said, the trends such as like depression test anxiety, stress management, relationships, roommates. I've had a lot of students this semester with roommate problems, and I don't know, it goes in spurts a little bit about what the topics are because we're assigned students randomly here at the counseling center. So it's kind of ironic sometimes when I have students who have similar issues, you would think that it wouldn't be a big deal, but it kind of stands out to me a little bit. Tonight we've got a very interesting topic, one that in all the years that I've done this show, I don't think we've actually had this specific topic. We've invited the director of the Veterans Affair and military affair office here on campus, but we haven't talked specifically about how mental health awareness can prevent veteran and first responder suicide. We really haven't talked about first responder issues much at all. We have addressed issues with people who like therapists who listen to problems and serious problems a lot. And sometimes you can get vicarious trauma that way. We've had show topics on vicarious trauma. My guest tonight is Michael O'Dell. He's a former U. S. Marine corporal and warrior's heart and missions director. How are you doing, Michael? Thanks for being on the show.
[00:03:17] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm doing good. Thank you so much for having us. It's a pleasure to be here.
[00:03:21] Speaker B: Do you need me to address you as corporal, or can I call you Michael?
[00:03:25] Speaker C: Yeah, you can totally call me Michael.
[00:03:26] Speaker B: Okay. I wasn't know some people probably would get offended at that because you earned that. So tell the listeners about yourself, a little more about yourself, your credentials, and why you're interested in this topic. I mean, it's obvious a little bit because you're a former Marine.
[00:03:45] Speaker C: Yeah. Yes, ma'am. So I'm sure we'll get into the weeds of parts of my story and all kinds of stuff as we go through this. So, just in short, I was in the Marine Corps from 2006 to 2010, and I served two combat deployments. First one was to Fallujah, Iraq, and the second one was to Ramadi, Iraq, and I was with third battalion, third Marines, also known as America's battalion. They're stationed out of Hawaii. So I grew up in Texas, Bandera, Texas, which is actually where warrior's heart is located. So that's really cool. But that is.
[00:04:29] Speaker B: Are you there? Right?
[00:04:31] Speaker C: Huh?
[00:04:31] Speaker B: Are you in Texas right now?
[00:04:33] Speaker C: Yes, ma'am, I sure am.
[00:04:34] Speaker B: I should have asked you that in the beginning. Sorry to interrupt. Go ahead.
[00:04:37] Speaker C: No, it's okay.
And so, yeah, a lot of us growing up wanted to join the Marine Corps. I was the only one that joined the Marine Corps and got to get stationed in Hawai. So that was super.
Country goes out to Hawai, it's like, whoa. So that was I. So I served four years in the Marine Corps, and I got out and struggled with mental health, struggled with PTSD, struggled with alcohol addiction and other addictions. And I struggled for quite a while until I found a passion and a desire to help people. So for the last eight years, I've been helping people recover from their past, recover from addiction, pts, their demons, and that's what I've had the honor and privilege and pleasure to do with warrior's heart over the last six years with warrior's heart. So that's kind of just a little bit about who I am.
[00:05:43] Speaker B: That's fascinating. Talk a little bit. If you're willing to. Can you talk more about the specifics of your service as a US Marine and in combat, even in Iraq and boot camp, too.
[00:05:58] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:05:59] Speaker B: I grew.
[00:06:02] Speaker C: People, I think a lot of people across the nation struggle with mental health at some capacity. Even if it's just maybe food addiction or phone, Facebook, there's addictions and mental health. Things we can work on. On that front. Nationwide, for me, I started to struggle with depression at a very early age. I was about 13 years old for no reason. There was no reason. Had a good life.
It wasn't anybody's fault. I just was 13 years old and depressed.
[00:06:39] Speaker B: Yeah. Life happens. Yeah.
[00:06:43] Speaker C: And so that is what got me on the wrong trajectory at that.
So. And then I started drinking and did all of the things, started skipping school, getting in trouble, all of those things. And to fast forward that, why did I join the Marine Corps?
I knew that I was destined to do something positive and impactful with my life, and I didn't know what that was, but I did know that I have a rich family history of veterans. Marine Corps, Navy silver star recipients. Like, my family history is very decorated and patriotic.
[00:07:31] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:07:32] Speaker C: I thought, well, what better way to change my life than join the Marine Corps, right?
[00:07:37] Speaker B: Boot camp.
When you were talking, when you were introducing yourself and telling a little bit about yourself, what was going through my mind is like, I always am curious, like, you enrolled. Enlisted. Listen to me. Enrolled. I'm so on a higher education track. Enlisted in 2006. So I've talked to many veterans who have come to the University of Alabama who had gone. They've been overseas, they've served their country, and they've come back to college. Whether it's a lot of our veterans actually are online students, distant students, I get that. But we have some who come back to campus, and I kind of tippy toe around what I ask them because you just never know what they've been through and what they're willing to talk about. But the boot camp part and the 911, a lot of the ones, when I first started working here back in 2004, 911 is what spurred a lot of people to enlist and want to serve their country.
And then I would imagine, I don't know what can prepare you for boot camp. Like, were you prepared mentally for that? Was it what you expected? Was it worse? Was it different? Talk about the specifics, if you can.
[00:08:58] Speaker C: Yeah. So boot camp, Marine Corps boot camp, I'll say, is the toughest boot camp to get through. I heard ranchers will argue that and they'll crack some crayon jokes, but that's only because they wish they joined the Marine Corps.
[00:09:12] Speaker B: Exactly. But a.
[00:09:17] Speaker C: To.
I look at myself very differently nowadays. But back then, when I was younger, I considered myself to be a very tough guy again. Right. I struggle with depression. I was drinking. I was kind of a lone wolf, lone survivor. Had that mentality that nothing you can do can take me out. And so going into boot camp with that mentality helped me out a lot because although it came as a shock, right. There was nothing that they could say or do that really.
[00:09:56] Speaker B: Stumped you. Like, you've been there and done that a little bit. I guess it sounds to me like you sort of were mentally prepared for that aspect.
Physically, maybe.
[00:10:07] Speaker C: Physically, totally. I totally was. Both mentally and physically. And it's funny, there's different mindsets, so much so there's nothing anybody could say that I cared about. So they could do all the yelling they wanted to do, all the screaming, all the degrading.
It didn't matter.
[00:10:33] Speaker B: The tactics.
[00:10:36] Speaker C: It was kind of like a game. And it was exciting. And it was hard, though. Boot camp was hard.
I had to be the most disciplined I had ever been in my life.
The mindset around that is challenging, it's draining, and it's long. It's three months long, just daily, nonstop.
[00:10:58] Speaker B: Where was your boot camp?
[00:11:00] Speaker C: It was in California.
Yeah, it was in San Diego Marine Corps base. They call us Hollywood Marines.
[00:11:08] Speaker B: I can imagine.
[00:11:09] Speaker C: Yeah, they call us Marines.
[00:11:12] Speaker B: Wow. Well, unless you gave details or unless somebody's been through it, I really don't think anybody can imagine.
Maybe some athletes, maybe some hardcore athletes might can imagine the discipline, but it's different because they're preparing you to go into combat. That's what they're mean. And. Let's do this. Let's do this. Michael, let's take our first break, and when we come back, I want you to talk about the transition, if you're able to, about the transition from boot camp to combat and then back to civilian life.
We hear about it all the time, but I don't really know. I've never really talked about that with many people, especially the veterans I've seen. Usually they're coming in for something else, to be honest. Maybe struggling with academics, maybe relationships. And we don't really get down to it. And sometimes they don't want to talk about it, so I don't push it, definitely.
[00:12:08] Speaker C: Well, if you haven't talked to many people about it, then we will definitely get into it and it'll blow your mind.
[00:12:16] Speaker B: I think it will. Well, I am on a college campus and I am a therapist on a college campus.
Hold that thought. We'll be right back. You're listening to brain matters on 90.7 the capstone.
[00:12:44] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling, and no relationship is created between the show hosts or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863 if you are not a UA student, please contact your respective county's CRis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
[00:13:25] Speaker B: Matters on 90.7 the Capstone I'm Dr. B. J. Gunther. We're talking tonight about how mental health awareness can prevent veteran and first responder suicide. And my guest tonight is Corporal Michael Odell. He's a former U. S. Marine and he's the director of warriors heart admissions. I'm going to have problems pronouncing that, so just, I'm sorry already. When we went into the were, Michael was talking about boot camp and how incredibly hard. I don't think anybody can imagine what you've gone through. But as far as, like, comparing the actual boot camp to transitioning to combat, can you even compare that?
[00:14:06] Speaker C: Yeah. So there's a reason why boot camp, specifically Marine Corps boot camp, is so long, so tough, so difficult, and so disciplined, and it's because they're not training us for the Olympics, they're not training us for. That's easy. But that's not what we're being trained for. We're not being trained to go in first place somewhere. We're being trained to go kill and defend our brothers and sisters, kill the enemy and defend Americans and civilians.
That's it.
[00:14:50] Speaker B: That's it.
[00:14:51] Speaker C: And to be able to do that, you have to have a total brain shift. Your brain has to start operating in a different way.
An example is courage. Right? Courage is doing what you need to do, even if you're scared to death to do that. And that's what they train.
I'll give you a little secret. In Marine Corps boot camp, one of the cadences that we would repeat over and over is kill. Kill them all over and over and over and over and over and over and over.
[00:15:31] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:15:32] Speaker C: And it was motivating, but it's to get you prepared for what could happen.
[00:15:39] Speaker B: Could happen and, I mean, do you agree that there are certain personalities that cannot do this?
[00:15:47] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:15:48] Speaker B: I do, too.
[00:15:49] Speaker C: Yeah.
I think there's a branch of service out there for anybody, but there are specific types of mentalities and mindsets and behaviors that don't make it in other branches.
[00:16:04] Speaker B: Well, and this may be giving away our secrets, but are there higher ranked officers who know? I don't know how to ask. This can pinpoint who would be good at this and who would not. And then what happens? Because I've had students in here who plan to enlist, and in my mind, I'm like, I don't know if that's a good idea. It's almost like they decide to enlist not necessarily because they want to defend their country, because they are patriotic. It's kind of like that's the only thing they know that they can do or something. I don't know. It's just like that kind of mentality. And I'm like, this is serious. If you're going to enlist, you need to know what you are doing.
[00:16:53] Speaker C: Yeah.
The recruiters are pretty well trained to be able to identify, and there's a job in the military for just about anybody as well.
There's mechanics, pilots, hr, everything.
[00:17:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
Whole nother world.
[00:17:10] Speaker C: Yeah, it is. It's a whole nother ecosystem.
It really is.
But the transition from boot camp to the real Marine Corps, that was even different.
That was different because now I've been trained and now I'm expected to be accountable to myself for the training that I receive.
[00:17:41] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:17:42] Speaker C: So there's a whole nother level. It's kind of like when people go to treatment, like when folks come to warriors heart for treatment, it's the safety net. We train them, we get them. Okay. Stable, provide therapy, all of the things that we provide, and then they transition to a different level of care or home.
Now they're expected to be accountable and use the tools that they've been given and the training they've been given, and it's difficult as well.
[00:18:13] Speaker B: I'm a firm believer, though, and not to take anything away from great counselors, but I just really feel like in some circumstances, and especially with veterans and maybe even with first responders, we haven't even talked much about first responders yet, but I think a therapist who has been a veteran and been in that situation, I believe somebody who can relate to somebody like that, that's gone through that, that didn't even sound right. Do you know what I mean?
[00:18:43] Speaker C: I know what you mean. I can speak to that so most of what we're talking about can be applied to the first responder community. Emts, firefighters, paramedics, police officers. There's different intricacies between each specific field.
We at warriors heart consider all of them warriors. They're all of the same, whether you're active duty military veterans or first responders. Because we've made a commitment to be in service to other people.
[00:19:14] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:19:16] Speaker C: And to us, that's what identifies a warrior, someone that is in service to other people. For the bigger picture, police do it every day, and they face the same kind of stuff. Paramedics face it every day. Firefighters. I mean, the list goes on and on.
The problems they see are treated the same way.
[00:19:42] Speaker B: How about the. Okay, so fast forward.
You were in the Marine Corps for four years, had two duties of service, right. Overseas in combat, I'm assuming. How in the world do you transition back to civilian life? I mean, come on.
[00:19:59] Speaker C: So I'm blessed to be alive today.
I am extremely blessed to be alive today.
My transition. So kind of touching on suicide a little bit, unfortunately.
[00:20:16] Speaker B: But since that's the topic, and we haven't even gotten to that yet.
[00:20:19] Speaker C: Right. So our first deployment was normal, as you would say, a combat deployment is normal.
Nothing really more to add there.
Fallujah, Iraq. Google Fallujah, Iraq, and that'll tell you all you need to know.
Our second deployment to Ramadi, we had a young marine. I was a young marine. I mean, I'm still young, but this was 2008, 2009. We had a young marine. He was our saw Gunner, which is a machine gun, and he took his life within 30 days of that deployment.
Why?
Don't know. There was no letter. Maybe the family knows. I don't know.
But when that happened, so something that in the military, you're trained to respond to combat. You're trained to respond to people injured in combat. Right.
Okay. I know what to do.
You're not trained to respond to your brother's or sister's suicide. No, that's not something that was trained.
[00:21:44] Speaker B: I would think you're trained to respond to people who have been hurt by other people, not people who have made the choice to hurt themselves.
[00:21:53] Speaker C: Yes. And me and a few other folks responded. We found it, responded to it. It was very traumatic.
Literally days after that, we were back on the road conducting missions as normal.
We had a small memorial service, and then six months of deployment went on. And then we came back home, and we're asked that. Everybody's asked the question, are you seeing things, hearing things, or do you want to hurt people yourself. Everybody says no. Why? Because if I say yes, then I can't go home on leave. You're going to lock me up, throw away.
[00:22:32] Speaker B: You're going to be labeled.
[00:22:34] Speaker C: Yes. So, no, I have no problems. I want to go home on leave. And that's the stigma attached to reaching out for help. People don't do it because they're afraid of.
[00:22:44] Speaker B: And, Michael, it's kind of the same. Even here? Even here. I have had students tell me they're afraid to even express that they're having suicidal ideation or have had that in the past because they're afraid I'm going to put them in the hospital. I have to explain. This is how you get put in the hospital, but don't be afraid. We will figure this out. You have to really kind of explain a lot, because people are afraid of that. They're afraid of the.
[00:23:12] Speaker C: They. They really are. And after that, we came back.
I made a decision that I had served my time in the Marine Corps. I was done. I did four years honorably. Two deployments.
[00:23:30] Speaker B: That's enough.
[00:23:31] Speaker C: I was good, right? I was ready to come home. And so I got out of the Marine Corps. But I got out of the Marine Corps with a lot of problems.
I was not okay.
[00:23:41] Speaker B: No.
[00:23:42] Speaker C: I had a severe alcohol problem. Severely addicted to alcohol. And they do it different nowadays. But in 2010, they made me go to an alcohol awareness class, which those hour long virtual trainings work really well for real alcoholics. They're just phenomenal training.
[00:24:03] Speaker B: Check the box.
[00:24:05] Speaker C: Yeah. And so I think I was hungover in the training. I got out of the Marine Corps, and those problems followed me. And one of the biggest differences and challenges was, now I'm not a marine anymore.
Right.
[00:24:20] Speaker B: They say, what was your identity at that point?
[00:24:23] Speaker C: Then lost it. Total identity crisis. And that's what our nation's heroes are facing every single day. First responders, police officers, firefighters. You got to think about this. Check. A firefighter. Firefighter has the identity of a firefighter. It's their blood. It's what they do. They save lives.
They live for it, and then they go home to their family.
They're not a firefighter in the home now. They have to be father, husband, caretaker, provider, compassionate. After they just responded to very traumatic and grotesque scenes, and now they got to go have dinner with their kids and act like they're okay.
[00:25:14] Speaker B: Yes. And to compartmentalize. Yes.
A lot of us, even counselors, we do that. We do that.
But when you've actually seen a car accident, where someone's died. You're right. How are you going to go home and play with your kids.
[00:25:36] Speaker C: At warriors heart? So we have served over 3000 warriors in our six week residential program. Our focus is substance abuse and also PTSD, survivors, guilt, moral injury.
We can get into all of the offerings that we have at some point if you want to.
[00:25:56] Speaker B: Yeah, let's go ahead and do that because I want to know the details about how is someone eligible? How is it paid for? What's the cost? I want to know the details about the program. Are there other programs like this across the country? Is there a limit of how many people you can take?
[00:26:15] Speaker C: Okay. Yeah.
Warriors heart, we have two locations. We opened up in 2016.
We have two inpatient locations, one brand new. We opened it up on 911 last year. It's in Milford, Virginia, and it's a 60 bed residential treatment program. And then we have our facility in Texas, which is 100 bed residential treatment program. The criteria to come to our program is you have to have a substance abuse problem of some kind and you have to be a warrior.
That's it.
That is all. And who pays for it? Insurance pays for it. There's cash pay, private pay options for people that can't afford it. There's nonprofits out there that love to support our nation's heroes.
[00:27:07] Speaker B: Kind of like scholarships?
[00:27:09] Speaker C: Yes, we do our own scholarships as well.
Nobody has ever reached out to us and then not been able to come to us at some point because of money problems. And we've never kicked anybody out because they couldn't make a payment or their insurance termed or the VA decided to say, we're canceling their authorization. If they're with us, they stay with us until they're whole and ready to go home.
[00:27:35] Speaker B: Is there a waiting list?
[00:27:37] Speaker C: No, there's not.
About three years ago, we had our 60 bed residential program in Texas and we had a waitlist. And we, as an organization from the founders down, identified that that was unacceptable for any of our heroes in America to have to wait for help when they're ready for help. And so we opened up another 40 beds in Texas, and we opened up a 52 bed sober living facility in Texas, and we opened up recently that 60 bed facility in Virginia. So we do not have a waitlist and we're able to help anybody that qualifies, that wants help.
[00:28:23] Speaker B: So anybody can make a referral or the person themselves can contact you guys?
[00:28:28] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:28:29] Speaker B: What's the website?
[00:28:31] Speaker C: It's ww dot warriorsheart.com.
[00:28:38] Speaker B: Not okay.
[00:28:40] Speaker C: Yes, ma'am.
[00:28:41] Speaker B: Wow. And is there, like a step down program after they complete the six week program. And also what professionals are involved with the program? Are there psychiatrists? Are there therapists? Are there nutritionists? Even? I'm thinking about when I first worked in an inpatient substance abuse facility, what was offered?
[00:29:04] Speaker C: Yeah. So, yes, we have our medical director. That's over the facilities. We've got nurse practitioners, psychologists, psychiatrists, LPCs in Texas, LMSWs, LCDCs, CSACs in Virginia, social workers, and then all of our client relations staff. And we also have our elective programming staff. So we offer full wood shop, full metal shop. A canine program?
[00:29:38] Speaker B: Yeah, that would be cool.
[00:29:41] Speaker C: We do service dogs and emotional support dogs. So if someone comes to us and it's identified on a clinical level that this person would benefit from a service dog for nightmare mitigation, PTSD, anxiety, maybe diabetes, like blood sugar drop, we train our dogs to be able to identify those things, and a warrior can leave our program with a full service dogs, ADA certified.
[00:30:14] Speaker B: That's amazing.
That is amazing. I know Catherine's holding her hand up for us to take a break. Let's take another break. When we come back, I want you to tell everybody how you knew you needed help. Like, at what point did you know?
You didn't know this was going to be a therapy session, did you? Hang on.
You're listening to brain matters on 90.7. We'll be right back.
WVUA FM, Tuscaloosa.
[00:30:50] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling, and no relationship is created between the show hosts or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863 if you are not a UA student, please contact your respective county's cris service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
[00:31:29] Speaker B: Hey, you're back listening to brain matters on 90.7. I'm BJ Gunther, and we're talking tonight about how mental health awareness can prevent veteran and first responder suicide. And my guest is former US Marine corporal Michael Odell, and he's also the admissions director of warriors heart. We just talked a little bit about that program. Sounds like a truly amazing and much needed program, and they've got a facility in Texas and one in Virginia. The website is warriorsheart.com. If you're interested in your listening, and I'm sure there's other programs like this throughout the country, I don't know of too many. And to be honest with you, Michael, when I see students, a lot of times they're not even aware sometimes of what we have on campus here provided for.
I probably, I don't know if I should say this or not, but they've told me two things to not do on the radio show. Don't say commercial break and don't cuss. So I haven't done that yet. But a lot of students who I've seen in the past, they don't want to go to the VA. And so that's why they come to us a lot of times. And they just kind of have, like, I don't know, they just kind of feel like they don't get the treatment they feel like they need. And so I'm glad we have something on campus to help them with that. But warriors heart even goes beyond that, it sounds like, to me.
[00:32:56] Speaker C: Yeah. So to answer your question, there are programs in the nation that serve the warrior class, but not like we do. We are special in a sense that we're exclusive to the warrior class. So we don't have a separate program for veterans?
[00:33:19] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:33:20] Speaker C: We only treat veterans and first responders. So you can't just a civilian, even a spouse, unfortunately, we will help a warrior spouse find the inappropriate support. Absolutely. But they wouldn't even qualify to come to our program. And there's lots of reasons why a first responder. Here's an example.
[00:33:45] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:33:45] Speaker C: A police officer needs to be in recovery.
They start going to meetings, AA meetings or NA meetings. They're a police officer or a former police officer.
Can we really expect them to have arrested half of the people in the city and then go to a meeting with half of the people they arrested and then expect them to then share in the meeting about how they're feeling in process.
[00:34:13] Speaker B: Weird. Yeah.
[00:34:15] Speaker C: They're not going to do it. And so there's not a safe place for a first responder to go to in their hometown to recover if they're feeling that type of way or if they need to be around people that get what they're going through. So that's why our mission is exclusive to the warrior class. And there's no other programs in the nation that treat the warrior class like we do. Specifically, they have carve outs and separate tracks and all that stuff, but nothing like us.
[00:34:47] Speaker B: This is way more specialized. Okay. So before the break, I ask, how did you know you needed help?
[00:34:52] Speaker C: Yeah. All right, so we're halfway through, so I'll keep this part super short. How did I know I needed help? So in 2010, I got out of the Marine Corps. Struggled. We covered that.
In 2013, my son was born. I was struggling, and I thought that having my own child would change my life. And guess what?
It didn't.
So then that was 2013. He's an amazing little boy. He's not little anymore. He's ten years old.
[00:35:31] Speaker B: Eleven.
[00:35:33] Speaker C: I thought that would change me. It didn't. In 2016, I went to prison for substance abuse.
[00:35:42] Speaker B: Did that do it?
[00:35:44] Speaker C: So I went to treatment before that, and I learned what I needed to learn to stay sober. But I wasn't ready.
[00:35:53] Speaker B: Yeah, you weren't doing. Yeah.
[00:35:56] Speaker C: So then I went to prison in 2016, and I finally gave in. I finally had the feeling that I can't do this on my own anymore. I've fought this battle long enough. I tried to take my life a few years prior to that, and I was unsuccessful with that. Thank God. And so when I was sitting in prison, and here's what I was thinking. I have kids.
Do I love them? I don't know. I'm sitting in prison. Maybe I do, maybe I don't. I can't answer that. If I did, I wouldn't be in prison.
[00:36:34] Speaker B: That's right. My mindset, that was the mentality.
[00:36:38] Speaker C: And then I had an honorable discharge from the Marine Corps. But I'm in prison. So what does that make me now? A hypocrite? A criminal identity crisis? Don't know what?
[00:36:49] Speaker B: I'm having it. Yeah.
[00:36:52] Speaker C: Long time lifelong alcoholic at this point, and drug addict.
And I've tried to do it all on my own. That's when I realized I can't anymore. And I made a commitment to change my life. I started working a program. I started studying and learning and doing everything I could to change my life. And my life has never been the same since. It's been a beautiful ride.
[00:37:18] Speaker B: Why do you think you talked a little bit about maybe the.
I guess, embarrassment or not being able, like the police officer not being able to get help because of the situation that they're in. Why do you think it is so hard for veterans and first responders to reach out for help? Is it a pride thing? Is it an ego thing? Honestly?
[00:37:44] Speaker C: I think it is.
A veteran and a first responder have essentially, even though they're alive, they've given up their life in service to their communities and to their country.
The warrior knows how to serve other people.
What the warrior forgets to do is serve themselves.
[00:38:05] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:38:06] Speaker C: And so people have told me my whole life that I'm the best advice giver.
I give great advice. But for 20 years, I didn't follow my own advice.
[00:38:18] Speaker B: Right.
[00:38:19] Speaker C: I didn't care about myself. I cared about other people.
And so the warrior class, as we call it, they're great servants.
They'll die for you.
[00:38:31] Speaker B: Terrible listeners. No, they're probably great listeners, too. I bet you're a good listener.
[00:38:37] Speaker C: I just didn't know how to serve myself.
[00:38:39] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:38:40] Speaker C: And so some of our values at Warrior's heart is service.
Service is a core value at warrior's heart for staff and clients. We have to be able to serve others and serve that.
[00:38:56] Speaker B: Yes. And accept that and accept yourself. Yes.
[00:38:59] Speaker C: Yeah. It's not a bad thing for me to serve myself in the greater good. For me, that's not a bad thing.
[00:39:06] Speaker B: Let's face it. I tell people this all the time. These students come in here and I'm like, you've got to have a balance, because if you're not balanced, you're going to fail. You're going to fail your classes, you're not going to do well. The athletes I see, I tell them the same thing, too, because it's like what you're saying, and they come back sometimes and they say, well, that's so selfish. And I'm like, no, I don't call it selfishness. I call it self preservation. That's really what it is. That's what you're talking about.
[00:39:35] Speaker C: Yes.
An example I like to use is, so when I was living in my mess, I would help anybody if I could, but I was not helping myself.
[00:39:46] Speaker B: Right.
[00:39:47] Speaker C: And through that, I was absolutely not helping my family, my kids.
Right. I was helping other people. And then I went to prison. Was I really serving the people that mattered most?
[00:39:59] Speaker B: No.
[00:40:00] Speaker C: I didn't start doing that until I took care of myself, because then I was able to be there for the people that matter most. And if I'm not, well, I can't help anybody.
[00:40:14] Speaker B: You talked about your friend who took his own life when you were in combat and you yourself attempted. What are the signs? What do you think are the signs? I mean, I know the signs as a therapist, but do you think it's different for veterans and first responders?
[00:40:34] Speaker C: I think the signs are. It's kind of universal. And even some of the statistics. Right, like, 22 veterans a day are taking their life. We know that some statistics might tell you that it's a little lower now or a little higher, but about 23 per 100,000 veterans are taking their life.
And then on the civilian side, there's about twelve non veteran adults per 100,000. But you got to think about the different size and populations, just civilian population. And veteran population is tremendously different. And the veteran population, it's just tragic. And the signs are, I think, the same universally.
Some of the big ones are substance abuse. And you know that as a therapist, it's substance abuse, but depression, isolation, and then from what I have seen and experienced personally, nobody that has taken their life that I know personally, and there's quite a few gave any signs other than they might have had an addiction problem. But there was no signs. There was no letters, there was no goodbyes, there was no text that went out.
It just did it. But what they did all have in common was alcohol or drugs.
And that's why at warrior's heart, we treat substance abuse, because 99% of the time, if a service member takes their life, there's some sort of intoxicants involved. Same on the civilian side.
[00:42:23] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:42:24] Speaker C: And if we can make a dent in substance abuse, then we can make a dent in suicide side.
That's suicide prevention. Get rid of the substance.
[00:42:34] Speaker B: It's true. I mean, I don't even know the specifics of substance abusers and the statistics of substance abusers who are not in the military or veterans who take their life daily.
I guess they're just trying to avoid a feeling, really, and avoid a lot of the, you mentioned nightmares, a lot of the PTSD symptoms that, hey, by the way, let me ask you this sidebar.
At warrior's heart, do you know if a form of therapy called EMDR is used?
[00:43:15] Speaker C: Yeah, we do it.
[00:43:16] Speaker B: Okay.
I mean, that is like a big one that a lot of people have not heard of. When I try to educate students who have been through traumas, they kind of look at me very skeptical. And we've had two shows in the past. I mean, the first one I had was years ago when nobody heard about it. And there was only one person in our community, one psychologist, doing EMDR. And even when I had her on the show, I was like, I don't know about this, but after the show, it was really almost miraculous.
The results for trauma.
[00:43:50] Speaker C: Yeah, we do a lot of different therapies, CBT, DBT, but we also offer EMDR therapy.
It's called Mert, but it's kind of like TMS. I don't know if you've heard of TMS, but it's brain treatment.
[00:44:05] Speaker B: We've had a show on that.
Transcranial magnetic stimulation.
[00:44:10] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:44:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:44:11] Speaker C: So we do that as well.
The EMDR, we love. It's evidence based, eight phase.
All you got to remember is when you rip them open, you close them back up.
You got to close them back. If you can't leave somebody open, you got to close it down.
But that goes for anything. One on one sessions and everything. I mean, it's easy to rip people open.
Hey, tell me this, what's wrong?
[00:44:38] Speaker B: And then you've got a real mess.
[00:44:40] Speaker C: It takes a real solid professional to be able to unpack those things and then put the puzzle back together.
[00:44:48] Speaker B: Okay, we're going to take our last break. When we come back, I want you to talk a little bit. You've kind of told us how you're doing now, but I want more details, how you're doing now. And also, what does it mean to be the admissions director at Warriors Heart?
What do you literally do? And then I want to ask you about any other resources that you have. Any books, any apps, any podcasts even. I love hearing about all that kind of stuff. It's putting you on the spot a little bit, but when we come back, we'll talk about that, okay? You're listening to brain matters on 90.7 the Capstone Tuscaloosa.
[00:45:35] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling, and no relationship is created between the show hosts or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863 if you are not a UA student, please contact your respective county's crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
[00:46:14] Speaker B: Hey back. Listening to brain matters on 90.7 the Capstone. I'm Dr. BJ Gunther. We're talking tonight about how mental health awareness can prevent veteran and first responder suicide. My guest is former US Marine corporal Michael O'Dell. He's also the admissions director at Warriors Heart, two locations, Texas and in Virginia. And it just sounds like a really amazing program to me that if people know about, know it's an you. How are you marketing the program? Like, do you market to college campuses even, or do you market to. Are there's veterans organizations that you can market to? How do people hear about warriors heart?
[00:46:58] Speaker C: Yeah, so we do a lot of social media. We do a lot of Facebook, Instagram.
We do a lot of conventional and unconventional marketing. We do podcasts and interviews. Just like me joining you on this one. Yes, we have a documentary on Amazon prime check it out.
[00:47:18] Speaker B: Write that down.
[00:47:19] Speaker C: It's called warriors healing warriors.
[00:47:23] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:47:24] Speaker C: And it's a 60 minutes documentary. I think it costs, like, buy it. Yeah.
It's phenomenal.
I might be in it. So check it out.
So we do all kinds of stuff. If you get on our website,
[email protected]. And you go to media tab. There's a whole list of interviews we've done, podcasts we've been on.
[00:47:53] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:47:55] Speaker C: Yeah. So there's a lot of publicity there.
[00:47:58] Speaker B: What about how you're doing now? How's your family?
Do you still have to participate in any kind of support group for yourself personally? Are you willing to share that?
[00:48:11] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. So I've been sober almost eight years. Actually, the 31st will be eight years, and I am the admissions director. I didn't correct you. That's okay, because you wouldn't know because you have the information you have. But I also got promoted recently to this year to the executive director over our command center. So I'm still running admissions, but I've got a lot of other.
[00:48:38] Speaker B: That sounds like a lot of work. Yeah.
[00:48:43] Speaker C: So life is beautiful.
When I got out of prison, I found out that I had another child. Okay. So I went into prison with two year old son. I came out of prison with a two year old little girl.
And in 2018, I got custody of both of my children. Well, I found out that one was really mine, and then I got a whole nother show. Yeah.
But I got custody of them. I've been with warriors heart since started with warriors heart. Just answering the phones and talking people through their problems.
[00:49:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:49:25] Speaker C: And I still do that, among a lot of other things. But life is.
I saw a post the other day that really resonated with me, and I want to get it right. But it said, I used to crave, or in my addiction, I used to crave the life that I have now.
[00:49:54] Speaker B: And look at you.
[00:49:56] Speaker C: It couldn't be farther from the truth.
When I was in my addiction, I wanted a better life. I wanted success. I wanted joy. Ultimately, I just wanted to be happy.
[00:50:08] Speaker B: Of course.
[00:50:09] Speaker C: And I did. I craved it, and it was impossible to achieve. That's how far away from it I was. You could not have convinced me that I would be who I am today. There's no way. I don't care how good of a therapist you are. Doctor, medication, all the things I'd have been like. Ha.
[00:50:30] Speaker B: Because it's all internal. You have to do it yourself.
You are a very transparent person. I feel very free asking you anything. Just about like, you come across as very transparent. How comfortable are you at being transparent? Because I think that's what helps you connect with these warriors.
[00:50:49] Speaker C: I prayed when I was in prison, I prayed for the opportunity to be able to use my past to help people get through theirs, to help people get through their current and through that, to be able to provide for my family. So my prayer was that all of the bs that I'd been through in my life, I was able to turn around and create income for my family, provision and help people do the same thing I did. And the prayer was answered. And so I've been sharing my story and talking I don't know how many times.
It's what I agreed to do if given the opportunity to have a good life, and I've been given a good life.
[00:51:49] Speaker B: And it's very fulfilling. You and I have that in common. It's very fulfilling to be able to help somebody else. It just is. It's like one of the best feelings in the world.
[00:52:01] Speaker C: Could you imagine this? Like, you're struggling? Even if you're like a college student listening or whatever, if you're struggling, you don't know what to do and you're like at the end of your rope, you start reaching out for help. You don't know where to go, but you start, which, by the way, is 1000 pound phone. That is not easy to pick up. No, but you pick it up anyway. And you start calling around and your life has fallen apart. And you find a program that you think might be a good fit. You're talking to somebody and you're telling them, you don't understand what I'm going through. I'm contemplating suicide. I recently was arrested. My family's falling apart. I might go to jail. I lost my job. And then the person on the other end of the phone gets to say, hey, man or lady? Woman.
I just got out of prison because I was doing the same thing you're doing. And now I'm the one answering the phone for you. I know you can talk to me.
[00:53:04] Speaker B: It gives you a purpose. Yeah, it gives you a purpose. That's the big Michael, this. I say this every week, but I was a little bit nervous about doing this show because I didn't feel like I don't know a whole lot about veterans and what you go through because I am on a college campus and that's not my specialty, so to speak, even though I have seen veteran students. But this has gone by fast and this has been a really phenomenal show.
I didn't even get to most of the questions that I had written down to ask you. So we may have to do a part two one day. Seriously, I mean, we might have to do that. This is just fascinating. Any other resources before we close? Do you have any other resources for the listeners? Like podcasts? You mentioned Warriors Heart has podcasts. What about any books, any apps? Even.
[00:54:01] Speaker C: I would say, for resources? Again, you can get on our website, first of all, and check out some of the media that we have posted on the website. Even our Facebook. Our Facebook is warriors harp. We've got a ton of stuff on Facebook. But what I would want to encourage anybody listening to this call, college student, veteran, non veteran, whatever human being, any human being listening to the call.
If you're feeling a type of way, happy, sad, depressed, angry, anxious, addiction, whatever, suicide, whatever you got going on, if you're feeling a type of way, there is absolutely no shame in reaching out for help.
[00:54:43] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:54:44] Speaker C: At all.
Had I not reached out for help, I wouldn't have gone to treatment, even though it fell apart after treatment because I wasn't ready. You got to be ready to change.
[00:54:57] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:54:58] Speaker C: But I was able. This is so cool. I did treatment in 2011, I think. I don't even remember. That's how impactful it was at the time. But six years later in prison, I was able to use the tools I learned in treatment to freaking get my head on straight.
[00:55:18] Speaker B: Yes, it's amazing.
Let's leave with this. And I need to make some announcements before we close. But if you are a warrior and you're listening to this, you might not be a student. Because our show and our podcast can reach many people, you can call the warrior's heart 24 hours hotline. It's 1866-955-4035 if you're a student and you're listening and you're worried about yourself or you want some help, you can call us at 205-348-3863 and check out our website too. I'm going to make some announcements in just a minute, a little more specific. But thank you, Michael, for being on the show. I really appreciate it. This is great.
[00:55:56] Speaker C: You're very welcome. And I am absolutely open to part two. This hour flew by extremely.
[00:56:01] Speaker B: Yes. Yes. It's great. Don't forget our shows are recorded and podcasted on the Apple podcast, audioboom.com and voices ua.edu. You just type in brain matters and you'll find some of our past shows. There's also a link to voices ua.edu on our counseling center's website at counseling ua.edu. I always like to thank the people who've made this show possible. Dr. Greg Vanderwald, he's our executive director at the counseling center. My producer and my colleague, Katherine Howell. Of course, my colleagues here at the counseling center, Catherine Ratchford, she edits our shows for WBUA and of course, the VUA staff. And my guest tonight, Corporal Michael O'Dell. And don't forget next week, Woohoo, it's spring break. Thank goodness we made it, y'all.
And we'll be doing a show after that. And that show is going to be, this will be fascinating, narcissistic relationship.
I can't wait to talk about that. So come back and join us. Don't forget about us. It'll be 06:00 on Tuesday. Thanks again for listening, and you have a good night.
[00:57:15] Speaker A: This show was not intended as a substitute for professional counseling. Further, the views, opinions and conclusions expressed by the show hosts or their guests are their own and not necessarily those of the University of Alabama, its officers or trustees. Any views, opinions or conclusions shared on the show do not create a relationship between the host or any guest and any listener, and such a relationship should never be inferred. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, please contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863 if you are not a UA student, please contact your respective county's Cris service hotline or their local mental health.
