Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling and no relationship is created between the show hosts or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863 if you are not a UA student, please contact your respective county's crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
[00:00:41] Speaker B: It's 06:00 and time again for brain matters, the official radio show of the UA Counseling center. We are broadcasting from the campus of the University of Alabama. Good evening. My name is Doctor BJ Gunther and I'm the host of the show along with my colleague and producer, Katherine Howell. And in case you don't know, the show is about mental and physical health issues that affect college students, and in particular UA students. So you can listen to us each Tuesday night at 06:00 p.m. on 90.7 fm, or you can listen online at wwfm ua.edu. you can also download several apps and one is MyTuner radio app and just type in WVUaFM 90.7. Also, this is our third show for the fall semester. We don't do shows in the summer, so we do lots of shows, probably about twelve or 13 in the fall and probably about twelve or 13 spring semesters. So I'm always asking listeners to send in topic ideas and if you have one, please email to me at brainmattersradiovuafm ua.edu and I'll consider using your show topic idea. And Katherine, if you'll remind me to give that email address out after every break, that may help people, you know, and nothing really is off limits, to be honest. We've done shows before this show tonight. The topic that we're doing tonight, we have done, I think, two shows in the past, but not anything as specific, hopefully, as what we're gonna get into tonight. The topic is sleep deprivation in college students, which I think this is probably, I tell people this all the time. I feel like this is probably one of the things that might get students in the counseling center quicker than just even anxiety or panic attacks because it's very common to have their sleep cycle messed up. And sometimes they cannot write that themselves. And sometimes it takes help from a counselor, sometimes it takes medication. And we're going to talk about that tonight, you know, balancing the demands on your time, a full course load, extracurricular activities, socializing with friends, can be challenging. And if you also work or have family commitments, it can feel like there's just not enough time or hours in the day. And with so many competing priorities, sacrificing sleep maybe may feel like the only way to get all of it done. Despite the sleepiness you might feel the next day. One night probably won't have a major impact on your well being. But regularly short changing yourself on quality sleep can have serious implications for schoolwork and your physical and mental health. Prioritizing a regular sleep schedule can make these years healthier, less stressful, and more successful long term. I'm preaching that all the time, I feel like with college students. My guest tonight is doctor Steven Thomas. Doctor Thomas is. And let me make sure I want to give you the appropriate respect. You're the director of the UAB Behavioral sleep Medicine Clinic, is that right?
[00:03:38] Speaker C: Yep. That's great.
[00:03:39] Speaker B: But you're also a UA graduate, so I want to say that. Roll tide.
[00:03:42] Speaker C: Yes, roll tide.
[00:03:43] Speaker B: Thank you for being on the show. Tell the listeners a little about yourself, your credentials, and why you're interested in sleep and this topic.
[00:03:53] Speaker C: Yeah, well, I think it goes back to my undergrad years. I did undergrad at the University of Alabama at Birmingham, and I was a psychology and biology double major, and I was in the psychology honors program, and I worked as a sleep tech at night to get through school.
[00:04:12] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:04:13] Speaker C: Kind of fell in love with sleep medicine at that point for a variety of different reasons, but finished undergrad at UAB and then went to grad school at the University of Alabama and internship at the University of Florida, and have been at the Birmingham, VA and at UAB on faculty ever since.
[00:04:30] Speaker B: Do most medical schools, like at UAB or like University of Florida, offer sleep, sleep medicine clinics?
[00:04:40] Speaker C: Yes. I think, you know, most of them have a sleep medicine clinic, and furthermore, most of them have a training program affiliated with them. And so, like at UAB, we have a sleep medicine fellowship program for physicians who go through and want to get training in sleep medicine. But it's interesting because most medical schools, we had to talk about this just the other day, but most medical schools only teach a handful of hours of sleep to medical students.
[00:05:11] Speaker B: That is shocking to me because just, you know, just knowing what I know about sleep, just dealing with students and people at my private practice who struggle with sleep issues, it's such an important factor in many mental, and hopefully we'll talk about this a little more. But many mental health issues and convincing, honestly, convincing a student of that sometimes can be difficult because I think that's the one thing. Sleeping and eating are the two basic needs that students just really overlook or think they can do without or think they can go without, and maybe they can for a few years even. But it catches up with you eventually, does it not?
[00:05:55] Speaker C: Yeah, no, it definitely does.
And it's a little bit counterproductive, I think, in the sense that, like, you know, if you're going to school and you're chronically sleep deprived, your ability to learn and retain information is going to take a hit, you know, when you're chronically sleep deprived.
[00:06:12] Speaker B: Mm hmm.
What's the benefits of good sleep and why should it be a priority?
[00:06:20] Speaker C: Yeah, it's just a basic, fundamental life need. You know, like you said, with eating, breathing, you know, sleep is just something that our bodies need to rest, recover, but there's just a lot that goes into sleep. And in teenagers and even, you know, as we get into the early twenties, human growth hormone is released during deeper stages of sleep. And so, you know, the ability to, um, you know, for the body to heal itself and even grow is dependent upon sleep. Sleep is actually so important that they've done studies and they, they cut out, uh, the part of the brain, um, in rats that's responsible for REM sleep, and after, uh, a few days, the rats die. So that tells us that there's just, that's scary. Exactly. Fundamentally important about sleeping.
[00:07:13] Speaker B: Why is it, let me ask you this. Is it, do you agree that it is difficult? I guess by the time somebody gets to you, though, at the sleep clinic, they've already accepted that they need some help? Yes, but do you understand, like, what I was saying, is it hard to convince people of the importance of sleep? Like, do they have to learn that on their own by the time they get to you? Do you know what I mean? What's something that somebody like me could tell a student to maybe help them understand that it's not just something that somebody's giving advice on in a magazine or something, you know?
[00:07:51] Speaker C: Yeah, no, it is, it is tough because it's taken for granted, you know? And I think most people think of sleep. I tell patients that come into clinic this all the time, but most people think of sleep as like a light switch.
[00:08:02] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:08:03] Speaker C: So, you know, when you fall, when you fall asleep, it's like turning the light switch off and, you know, when you wake up, it's turning it back on. And sleep is not that simple.
[00:08:12] Speaker B: It's not that simple at all. In fact, that's what I try to talk to students about. And we'll go into sleep hygiene a little more. Your routines is so important to maintain that. And I think that's probably the biggest thing with students is they don't have, they don't really have a routine. You know, they might have an 08:00 class on Monday, Wednesday and Friday, but they might not have to be in class until noon on Tuesday and Thursday. And then just. And then the weekend. That's a whole other session. Right. I mean, how do you convince somebody? Because I think what happens is they have got, I call it the mother of all excuses. They have gotten away with it for so many years that it teaches you that you don't really need it. You don't, you know, oh, I can get by on 5 hours and they might be able to for a little while, but it does catch up with you. Eventually your body will either get sick or you just have anxiety.
You know, I talked with somebody today that is getting better sleep and she's putting two and two together that hey, my anxiety is decreasing.
[00:09:16] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. I think the question as far as like how do you convince somebody of the importance? It's really tying it back to what's important to them. You know, I don't know if y'all have had a segment on like motivational interviewing or acceptance and commitment therapy, but like getting back to what's important to somebody. So if they're in college and, you know, their career development is important, not sleeping enough is going to negatively impact those things that they feel most important about their relationships with other people will suffer. You know, I think that's where. That's where convincing somebody that it really does matter is really key.
[00:09:51] Speaker B: And too, even just talking about it is one thing, but when they actually start feeling the benefit of it, then that's the enforce reinforcement.
[00:10:01] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:10:02] Speaker B: What about patterns of sleep? One of the articles that I read in preparation for this show and the shows that we've had before, I think we had one show on sleep.
Oh, what's happening, Katherine? I see balloons.
One show we had on sleep disorders specifically.
But one of the articles I readdeze is there's different sleep. I guess patterns or sleep stages. Are those the same things? Can you explain that?
[00:10:39] Speaker C: Yeah. So I think one thing that we talk a lot about is one's criminal type and that's simply, you know, whether somebody's a morning person or a night owl. And so that's kind of the timing of sleep. But even within a given night we have, you know, different sleep stages that people kind of go in and out of and so I like to talk with people about the fact that sleep is multifactorial. So there's, like, duration, there's timing, there's the quality of it. So there's a lot of different factors that kind of come into play with, like, what sleep is and what's important.
[00:11:14] Speaker B: It's not that simple. Like you said, there's a lot more to it. And when I just mentioned a minute ago about students not being able to write, I'm air quoting for those listening themselves. Is that true? Like, is it, I mean, does it come to a point where some people actually need. I mean, I think I know the answer. Need medication. And at what point do you recommend that, or do you have a talk with your clients or your patients?
[00:11:44] Speaker C: Yeah, I think that's particularly in the case of insomnia. And we'll probably talk more about what insomnia is, how, you know if you've got insomnia. But I think for most sleep issues, sleeping medications aren't necessary. And even with the case of insomnia, there's a lot of behavioral approaches that are really powerful that can keep people from having to take sleeping medication or get dependent on it, which is one of the biggest concerns. So I don't think it's necessary. It can be helpful in some cases.
[00:12:14] Speaker B: Well, and a lot of people just don't want to go to, they don't want to go that route. They're scared of getting addicted, or they're just scared of the side effects, because some people have tried medications and they have a hangover the next day, basically.
So it's kind of like, I don't want to make things worse.
Okay, let's take our first break, and then when we come back, will you be willing to take an email question?
[00:12:40] Speaker C: Definitely.
[00:12:40] Speaker B: Somebody. Yeah, let's do that. So we'll take our first break, and when we come back, we're talking with doctor Steven Thomas of the UAB behavioral medicine. What is it called? Help me here. Behavioral sleep medicine clinic.
[00:12:55] Speaker C: There you go.
[00:12:56] Speaker B: I'm gonna mess that up every time. So I'm sorry. I'm apologizing in advance. We'll be right back. You're listening to brain matters on 19.7. The Capstone.
[00:13:14] Speaker C: WVUAFM tuscaloosa.
[00:13:16] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling, and no relationship is created between the show hosts or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863 if you are not a UA student, please contact your respective countys Crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
[00:13:55] Speaker B: Hey, you're back listening to brain matters on 90.7 the capstone. I'm BJ Gunther and we're talking tonight with doctor Stephen Thomas. And the topic is sleep deprivation in college students, which I don't know. How common is that?
[00:14:09] Speaker C: Doctor Thomas it's very common actually, when you look at all the different sleep disorders that people can experience.
The most common sleep disorders are generally insomnia and sleep apnea. Sleep apnea being where people quit breathing at night, insomnia, having difficulties falling asleep or staying asleep. But in college populations, actually one of the most common sleep disorders is called behaviorally induced insufficient sleep syndrome, which is a fancy term for volunteering. Sleep deprivation? Yep.
[00:14:40] Speaker B: Wow. Well, and you know, when I mentioned before the break, we had a show on sleep disorders. Is sleep deprivation a sleep disorder?
[00:14:53] Speaker C: It can be.
Typically, it's not considered a sleep disorder in the sense of insomnia, sleep apnea, you know, parasomnia, like sleepwalking.
But I think if it goes on long enough and it starts to negatively impact one's daytime functioning, then it would cross that line into a disorder. But even if we don't consider it a sleep disorder per se, knowing that sleep deprivation long term is really unhealthy is problematic.
[00:15:25] Speaker B: It really catches up with you physically. Yes, is the biggest one. Hey, let's take our first email question, and don't forget, if you have questions for us, or in the future, if you have questions or if you have show topic ideas, which doctor Thomas just gave me a few show topic ideas, motivational interviewing and acceptance and commitment therapy. We have not done shows on either one of those, so thank you for that. But if you want to send a shout out to us, it's brain mattersradio at wvuafm ua.edu. so let me see if our first question, if we've already answered it, this person said, I know it's better for sleep to put our. I know it's better for sleep to put our screens away. Oh, this is a big 130 minutes before bed, but it is. Is it good to listen to music, ASMR or white noise before or during sleep?
[00:16:18] Speaker C: Yep. So let's start with the before bed piece of that. I would actually make the argument it's probably better to put electronic devices away even longer than 30 minutes.
And the reason for that is lightning light sends a cue to our brain to suppress melatonin, and the absence of light sends a cue to the brain to start producing melatonin. So if the sun sets and we've got all our lights on and we've got a screen in front of our face, basically it's a signal to our brain not to produce melatonin. And it's not time to go to bed or it's nowhere even close. So actually, I encourage people who have difficulties falling asleep to avoid screen use. Maybe an hour or more.
30 minutes may not be quite enough. For some people it could be, but for some people, it may not.
[00:17:11] Speaker B: So you can actually retrain your brain, though. Like, that's not a permanent. Like, you can retrain your brain to get used immediately. Like, if I couldn't go to sleep tonight and I'm looking at my phone or whatever tomorrow night, if I tried to not do that, it would be an immediate effect.
Yeah, yeah.
[00:17:32] Speaker C: It's. It's pretty quick in the sense that if you put it into a biological sense, like, you could. You could expose yourself to light one night and it suppresses melatonin. And you're not producing melatonin, or you start producing it much later in the evening, whereas the next night, if you put the screen away early and it's relatively, you know, dark after sunset or like an hour or so before, like, you actually, it will start producing melatonin. Yep.
[00:18:01] Speaker B: Wow.
She mentions ASMR. And I use an app. I have used an app before that. You see the commercials for it, Luna Loona. And there's something about that app that is very relaxing. Of course, with all apps, there's the free version and there's the premium version, and they don't sponsor my show or anything like that. It's just they do these things called sleepscapes, which gives you. It's kind of like a game. So you have to use your phone to do it, but they also have background noise and a narrator. What do you think about those kind of programs?
[00:18:41] Speaker C: I think if anything, it is relaxing for you before bedtime. It's a good part of a bedtime routine.
[00:18:48] Speaker B: Routine.
[00:18:50] Speaker C: I think the danger in that is, like, if it is on a phone, then, and it's unavoidable that you're exposing yourself to bright light. Now, there are phones that have, like, the blue light blocking filter. We don't know exactly how well that works.
[00:19:04] Speaker B: And there's glasses, too.
[00:19:06] Speaker C: Exactly. And our filters that you can put on top of your screen. In theory, you can do it, but in my clinic, a lot of times what we do is we teach relaxation strategies that people use these apps to learn. Initially with the idea that they're able to do it themselves without the app. Yep, later. Because in this case of insomnia, if they have trouble falling asleep or if they wake up in the middle of the night and can't get back to sleep, I would like them to engage in these relaxation strategies, but I don't want them to feel like they have to get their phone and turn it on in order to do so.
[00:19:39] Speaker B: It just seems counterintuitive. I've done that with a couple of football players a long time ago, that they eventually basically memorized the relaxation technique. So they really didn't even need a guide.
[00:19:54] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:19:55] Speaker B: It's cool.
[00:19:56] Speaker C: I think the guide's really helpful. Initially, people tend to like the guided relaxation strategies because it's easy, because they're learning it right.
But, yeah, ideally you wouldn't do that. But I think, you know, before. Before the night, there's a lot of different approaches and a lot of different apps that can be really helpful.
[00:20:13] Speaker B: The ASMR, for those who don't know, the autonomous sensory meridian responses, which we have done a show on ASMR years ago when it was just starting, a lot of people didn't know what it was. What do you think about that?
[00:20:30] Speaker C: It hasn't really been tested a lot in the context of sleep, and unfortunately, that ends up my response a lot. And it's the same with melatonin. People ask, what do you think about melatonin? Or any other supplements? And there's just not a lot of studies out there. So in theory, things could be helpful. We don't have the clinical trial data to say how helpful they are and for what type of person.
But in those cases, you know, if it's something that I don't think would be harmful, then I tell people, go for it. And if it helps you, then, you.
[00:21:05] Speaker B: Know, to each his own.
[00:21:07] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:21:08] Speaker B: What about. Do you have students, student, college age persons in your clinic?
[00:21:17] Speaker C: We do, actually. So my clinic at UAB is I have pediatrics behavioral sleep medicine.
[00:21:24] Speaker B: Really?
[00:21:25] Speaker C: Yeah, and adult behavioral sleep medicine. And I have clinical psychology grad students that rotate through my clinic and see patients under my supervision. And so we actually see people, I like to say, from birth to death.
[00:21:39] Speaker B: This is fascinating. Like pediatric. Tell me, I know this is more about college students, but this is interesting. What kinds of issues do children have?
Sleep issues.
[00:21:50] Speaker C: Yeah, it's, as you can imagine, it's developmental. Right. So, like, if we get a one year old or a two year old in, you know, the issues are, you know, more around waking up in the middle of the night and having trouble putting themselves back to sleep.
[00:22:03] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:22:04] Speaker C: Making sure parents aren't reinforcing them being awake at night by going in the room.
[00:22:08] Speaker B: I watched Super Nanny. I know what she did. I don't know if you've ever seen supernanny where they hide under the children's bed of.
[00:22:16] Speaker C: Yeah.
And as you get a little bit older, then for four or five year olds, then you get to bedtime refusal and then fighting sleep. Yeah. And nightmares enter there at some point. So we do like, nightmare treatments that are behavioral.
And then I think once you get into the teens, teens can be treated a little bit more like adults. And so we do deal a little bit more with things like insomnia or circadian rhythm disorders and teenagers and college students.
[00:22:47] Speaker B: What about restless leg syndrome? I had a student, I had a client at my private practice who was college aged or maybe high school even. He struggled with restless leg syndrome. We didn't know that at the time. Like, he hadn't been officially diagnosed, but it messed with his sleep tremendously.
[00:23:06] Speaker C: Yep. Yeah. And I guess for listeners, restless leg syndrome is this sensation when you're getting ready to go to bed, primarily when your legs are still kind of like a creepy crawly sensation. Annoying. Um, and it gets better when you move your legs, but it makes it difficult to fall asleep because you're trying to settle down and go to sleep. So. And, you know, one of the first things we do for restless legs syndrome a lot of times is, um, you know, check people's iron levels because if they've got low iron levels, that can contribute to those symptoms.
[00:23:37] Speaker B: Wow.
What about, um, the actual sleep study?
That is something a lot of people dread and avoid. Do you find that true? You know, because it is not comfortable necessarily. You know, people are. You're being observed, basically. You're hooked up to a lot of things.
[00:23:58] Speaker C: Yep. Yeah. Well, so the weight right now at UAB for an overnight sleep study is pretty long. I've heard anywhere from six to twelve months. So obviously there are a lot of people getting them done, but people do tend to drag their feet a little bit because it does involve coming into the sleep clinic overnight and you have a lot of wires and stuff on. Primarily it's used for detecting sleep apnea for something like insomnia, where somebody has trouble falling asleep or staying asleep. An overnight sleep study isn't necessarily indicated and we can treat that just in regular kind of outpatient clinic.
[00:24:34] Speaker B: I had one student with narcolepsy, but I don't really see that that much. Or you mentioned sleepwalking before the last break. I have not really, in all my years of working here, I don't know if I've ever had anybody that was a sleepwalker, you know, I don't know how common that is, too.
[00:24:55] Speaker C: It's narcolepsy. The first part is not very common, so that's why we don't see it quite as much.
[00:25:06] Speaker B: It's kind of rare.
[00:25:07] Speaker C: Yeah.
And then for sleepwalking, we see that more in kids. And so I would imagine once people get to college, that most thrown out of it.
You do have some people that may still sleepwalk into their college years, but most grow out of it before then.
[00:25:27] Speaker B: That makes sense. Let's take another break, and then when we come back, we've got a few more email questions, if you're okay with that. And then I want to talk about the consequences of sleep deprivation, but also, what are some of the remedies for it that really do work besides?
Well, we touched on sleep hygiene, but let's talk, let's go a little bit more in depth about what people can really do and to take this seriously. So we'll be right back. You're listening to brain matters on 19.7 the Capstone.
[00:26:10] Speaker C: WVuafm Tuscaloosa.
[00:26:13] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling, and no relationship is created between the show hosts or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863 if you are not a UA student, please contact your respective county's crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
[00:26:50] Speaker B: Hey, you're back listening to brain matters on 90.7 the Capstone. I'm Doctor BJ Gunther. We're talking tonight about sleep deprivation in college students. And really, all this information can pertain to any age group. It's not just, you know, college students that experience or really choose to deprive themselves sometimes of sleep. My guest is Doctor Justin Thomas. He's the director of the UAB behavioral sleep medicine clinic. And we just were talking about, you know, just some sleep disorders like narcolepsy and sleepwalking, I guess. But we really don't see a whole lot of that with college students. It's really for me, I think it's poor sleep hygiene. That's like the biggest thing. What does that mean? That sounds so scientific.
[00:27:40] Speaker C: It's really the do's and don'ts of sleep. You know, don't drink caffeine too close to bedtime.
You know, don't.
Don't stay on light emitting devices right up until bedtime. You know, do get plenty of exercise, but don't get exercise right before bedtime. So really, it's a lot of do's and don'ts.
[00:28:01] Speaker B: I've got another email question, if you're willing. I don't think we've answered this.
Wow, this is a good one. I've actually. I think I've had somebody who's several people. If a person does not sleep for 24 hours, can it lead to hallucinations?
[00:28:19] Speaker C: Usually it takes more than 24 hours, but definitely sleep deprived deprivation can lead to hallucinations.
Usually you're looking at several days of sleep deprivation, but if somebody's going into already sleep deprived and then doesn't sleep for 24 hours, it possibly could. And some people are just more susceptible to sleep deprivation, its effects more likely to have hallucinations.
And it depends upon the type of hallucinations you're talking about, because there are some hallucinations that occur around sleep periods that are somewhat normal.
[00:28:58] Speaker B: Really?
[00:28:58] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:28:59] Speaker B: Do tell.
[00:29:01] Speaker C: So, fancy jargony term, but hypnagogic and hypnopompic hallucinations. So it's things that you think you see or hear as you're either drifting off to sleep or waking up.
And it's just kind of a normal part of the weirdness of sleep and that, you know, as you transition in and out of sleep, you can have weird perceptual experiences.
[00:29:24] Speaker B: It sounds scary. It sounds like it would be scary for the person, you know, experiencing it.
[00:29:28] Speaker C: Yeah, well, and you mentioned narcolepsy. It's more common in people with narcolepsy because part of that disorder is issues with the transitioning in and out of sleep and between sleep and wakefulness. And. And so, yeah, it's more common.
[00:29:43] Speaker B: The first show I had on sleep issues and college students, I had a neurologist on the show, and he talked about sleep paralysis. And I've experienced that one time when I was in college and didn't know what it was, didn't know. And when he gave the definition, I was like, oh, my gosh, that's happened to me. And I actually had a student about two weeks ago who's had that and didn't know what it was? So we were able to talk about sleep paralysis. What causes that? Sleep deprivation. Is that another thing.
[00:30:16] Speaker C: So sleep deprivation can make sleep paralysis more likely.
[00:30:19] Speaker B: Define sleep paralysis for people.
[00:30:22] Speaker C: It's basically a pretty normal phenomenon that most people have experienced at least once in their lives, but it's that experience where you wake up and you feel awake, but you cannot move. And so part of the physiology behind that is when we're in REM sleep and we're dreaming, our brain is telling bodies not to move, so we don't act out our dreams. So there is natural kind of. It's called muscle atonia, but it's paralysis when we're dreaming. So we don't, like, jump out of bed. There's actually a sleep disorder when that system goes awry where people dream and jump out of bed.
[00:31:01] Speaker B: Oh, my goodness.
[00:31:02] Speaker C: It's called REM behavior disorder.
But for sleep paralysis. Yeah. You basically wake up and you can't move. And. And like I said, everybody's. Most people have experienced it at least once in their lives. It is very scary, but it can be made worse through sleep deprivation.
[00:31:21] Speaker B: Yeah, I would think sleep deprivation makes everything worse, you know, pretty much, yeah. What about. Okay, this person sent an email. How does sleep deprivation impact a person's ability to make rational decisions?
[00:31:38] Speaker C: It pretty dramatically negatively impacts cognition.
It reminds me of a study that was done where they sleep deprived people and had them do a driving simulator.
[00:31:50] Speaker B: I was just going to ask about driving. Yes.
[00:31:52] Speaker C: Their driving is worse than somebody who's intoxicated.
So sleep deprivation, pretty profound impacts on your ability to think and function. And, in fact, there's some emerging research right now that points to the fact that suicide attempts and completions are more common at night. And part of the reason is because your frontal lobe kind of disengages in the middle of the night.
So sleep deprivation can contribute to that result in a lot of different stuff. Yeah.
[00:32:25] Speaker B: Wow.
I might have to use some of these arguments, you know, with some students to kind of help him understand how important this is. Okay, we've got one more. Let me. Let me make sure. Yeah, one more. A couple more questions. Email. What are some of the most common short term effects of sleep deprivation? And we've already touched on some of them.
[00:32:48] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:32:48] Speaker B: Can you think of any more?
[00:32:50] Speaker C: Certainly, the most obvious is going to be sleepiness the next day. But a lot of people report being more irritable.
[00:32:57] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:32:58] Speaker C: You know, short tempered, easy to anger.
People are more emotional, so they can get really, really sad over something that we would consider or even they would consider relatively small. So it's like an exaggerated emotional response.
Your ability to focus and concentrate is impaired, your ability to remember things. So if you're like, sleep deprived and then you, you go into class the next day, your ability to kind of process that information is decreased.
[00:33:29] Speaker B: That was one of the questions. How does the student sleep pattern impact learning?
[00:33:33] Speaker C: Yep. Yeah. So getting sufficient sleep is really critical. And, you know, it's a trade off. I think one of the common things we hear about students is that, you know, maybe they procrastinate on studying for exams, so they decide to pull an all nighter. And to your point, you know, like, sometimes people can get by on just one night, but if they're already going into it sleep deprived or the simple fact of, like, staying up all night makes your performance on the test not as good as it would be otherwise. So it's definitely not. Not an ideal step.
[00:34:03] Speaker B: Well, and the scary part is, is sometimes those people will do well on the test. And so that just reinforces them that I don't need that sleep. Like, look what I made the highest in the class and I only had 4 hours sleep. So, you know, that starts a vicious cycle, but it does catch up with you eventually, I think.
[00:34:26] Speaker C: Yes, definitely.
[00:34:27] Speaker B: What about those people? Are there really people who only need like a few hours sleep?
[00:34:36] Speaker C: The likelihood of people only needing a few hours sleep is pretty small. Now, when we hear about adults needing seven to 8 hours, that's kind of the average. So if you, if you look at, you know, tuscaloosa, alabama, the average amount of sleep need is seven to 8 hours for adults. Actually, for teens and college students, it's actually closer to eight or 9 hours. So it's a little bit more.
But there are people that only need 7 hours or only need 6 hours.
[00:35:08] Speaker B: I've read Martha Stewart only needs four.
[00:35:12] Speaker C: Yeah, that's.
[00:35:12] Speaker B: Can you believe that?
[00:35:14] Speaker C: Yeah, that's almost, that's almost too little.
When you think of, for any of any of the students out there taking statistics and you think of a bell shaped curve and several standards, not normal. Yeah, that's too short.
[00:35:29] Speaker B: No, no, the person, I had another person send an email in and we're going to kind of talk about this anyway. But what are just some common sense tips for better sleep?
[00:35:43] Speaker C: I think something that's kind of relevant to students in particular is people can experience what's called social jet lag, where their sleep schedule during weekdays versus weekends or school days versus non school days differs.
So for social reasons, people may stay out later and sleep in later on the weekends. And if you think about it, a four hour difference between your wake up time on weekends versus weekdays is like flying across the country. So you're kind of like chronically jealous, jet lagged.
So that's, I think, one issue that is something that could be avoided and try to make the differences between school days and non school days not as consistency is really important in sleep. So that kind of touches on the same thing, making sure there's adequate opportunities to sleep. And I think when we talk about cramming for testing, like making sure that you're not procrastinating on preparing for a test so that you don't feel like you have to stay up all night.
[00:36:46] Speaker B: That's right.
What about, do you have patients who use sleep diffusing earplugs or something like that? Because if somebody is in. If a student is in the same room, like in the dorm, there are some dorms here that they do sleep in the same room. And the noise, you know, you can't go to sleep or their next door neighbor is just noisy, you know, so do the sleep. Are there techniques that people can use or does the sleep diffusing earbuds work?
[00:37:20] Speaker C: Yeah, it could be helpful. Just like, you know, some people wear, you know, masks of their eyes to kind of like, block out light. I think, you know, some people could definitely benefit from earplugs or something to that effect. Or a white noise device.
Because if it's. If it's somebody that's, you know, in the same room, like if you're having a share room, then obviously earplugs would probably be better. But if it's like, next door neighbors are loud, that out, a white noise device might help. Or maybe you need both. If they're really, really loud, you're needing ear plugs.
[00:37:50] Speaker B: I know around here, you know how it is.
You know, we see the commercials for all the different types of white noise, green noise, pink noise, brown noise. I didn't know there were all the noises.
Is that for real?
[00:38:04] Speaker C: Again, not a lot of scientific evidence, not enough studies to say, you know, whether the different types and all that matter, I do like to point out to people, because some people will turn their tv on and leave them on while they're trying to sleep. And I was saying earlier that sleep, it's not like a light switch where it's on or off. When we're asleep, our brains are still active and functioning and paying attention.
And there's some evolutionary advantages to that. We don't want to be asleep and have something catastrophic happen, and let's not be able to, like, be aware of it and wake up.
[00:38:39] Speaker B: Right.
[00:38:39] Speaker C: The downside to that is if you leave your tv on, then your brains kind of pay attention to the fluctuations in volumes. You know, a lot of times, commercials, if you're not streaming commercials, are way louder than the show itself. And fluctuation in volumes is causing your brain to kind of pay attention and try to decide, is that a threat? Is it not a threat? Do I need to wake up? And so I tend to encourage white noise where it. Constant rather than changing volumes.
[00:39:06] Speaker B: Yeah, you're right. I think it makes, does it keep you from getting into, is the goal getting into REM sleep?
[00:39:15] Speaker C: Well, there's a, there's different stages. So I think particularly for students, there's what we call in three sleep. It's the deepest non rem stage of sleep, and it's in the beginning part of the night, first two or 3 hours typically. And that's where human growth hormone, I mentioned earlier, is released. It's released out of n three sleep. REM sleep happens about every 90 minutes on average in most people. And they get, the REM periods get progressively longer, and that's associated with dreaming. So there's actually a couple of different stages of sleep that are really critical to cycle in and out of, in a given night.
[00:39:49] Speaker B: Really important. So if you've got the tv on all the time, you probably never get into the. There's a chance you might, but, yeah.
[00:39:57] Speaker C: It'S certainly possible that it would be disruptive enough to where either you wouldn't or you might, but it would wake you up out of one of those important stages of sleep.
[00:40:08] Speaker B: Yeah. What are some of the. Maybe. I don't know if this is a good question or not, but I'm curious, what are some of the research trends in college students sleep?
[00:40:19] Speaker C: Yeah, I think when we were talking about, like, the, the outcomes associated with sleep disorders or sleep deprivation, that's something that's still of interest.
Mental health outcomes, people being more susceptible to developing depression or anxiety if they're sleep deprived. The suicide piece that I mentioned earlier, there's a lot of work on that, including in college students and then one's ability to think and function and all that kind of stuff.
[00:40:51] Speaker B: Critical thinking, too, you know, because your brain is still growing, like, until for me. And what is it? Something like 20, something like that.
You said it. But I mean, the college age person's brains are still developing. And so, you know, you got to kind of take that into consideration, too. How much does diethyenne effect? Are there certain. I wrote this down. Are there certain foods that elicit sleep?
[00:41:25] Speaker C: You know, you always hear about things with tryptophan and, like, you know, turkey and whatever. I don't know.
Yeah, I don't know that there's really a lot of evidence behind that.
But I will say there's kind of a sweet spot as far as, you know, eating dinner and it not being too, too late or too close to bedtime, but then also not going to bed hungry. So you're, you know, waking up hungry. But it's, it's probably more so about the timing of when you eat than any kind of specific food item.
[00:41:57] Speaker B: I think so. I think too. I mean, I have noticed personally, like, when I have a high carb dinner, of course I get sleepy, but it wears off, you know.
[00:42:08] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:42:08] Speaker B: It's not gonna. I'm not gonna sleep the whole night.
[00:42:11] Speaker C: Yeah. It's that carb crash.
Yep. Yeah. So that. And you could make an argument, obviously, caffeine negatively impacts sleep.
[00:42:20] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh.
[00:42:20] Speaker C: Nicotine negatively impacts. So there's a lot of substances. But from a food standpoint, you could make the argument that, like, you know, maybe you should have a balanced meal where you've got some protein that's going to last through the night instead of just a real super carby dinner. Um, I've heard of people being pretty susceptible to sugar intake before bed and then having trouble falling asleep.
[00:42:40] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:42:41] Speaker C: Well, maybe being a little bit mindful about how much sugar you're consuming before bed.
[00:42:47] Speaker B: That's the truth. Tell. What about the environment? What about the sleep environment? Like, I have read many things that say, you know, you need to be comfortable not only in what you're wearing, but also with the temperature.
[00:43:01] Speaker C: Yeah. So in general, cooler is better. You know, it's possible to get too cold and, you know, it wake you up. Generally, cooler is better, and darker is better and less noise, or at least the white noise, kind of constant noise is better. You know, if you're in one of those apartments near the train tracks in.
[00:43:21] Speaker B: Tuscaloosa, oh, my gosh, I have students that they don't even hear that anymore.
They just become accustomed to it.
[00:43:29] Speaker C: Yeah, you can, you can get habituated to it. But also, if you're chronically sleep deprived, when you finally do fall asleep, you tend to sleep a little bit deeper.
And so it's certainly possible that if you've got people that are running around kind of on the verge of chronically sleep deprived, anyway, once they fall asleep, like maybe things, that's it, they're out. Yeah, yeah.
[00:43:52] Speaker B: Well, and another thing I read in some of the research that I did before the show is some people have problems going to sleep when they're bedroom is like unorganized, totally a mess. I couldn't believe that, you know, but I guess to each his own again, you know, some people, it doesn't matter to some people.
[00:44:14] Speaker C: Yeah. If it's bothering you, you feel the urge to clean up before you can go to sleep. I can see it being problematic.
[00:44:20] Speaker B: Yes. I guess.
[00:44:22] Speaker C: And that ties really into like, I guess the bigger picture of stress and the effects that stress has on sleep because stress in general is horrible for sleep.
[00:44:32] Speaker B: Yeah. I have many students who, I have one student, all he talked about was ruminating, ruminating, ruminating. And I have many students who, they can't shut their brain down. That's what they say. They can't shut their brain off. You know, it's hard to. That takes practice and it's a behavioral, you know, it's the premise of CBT, but it takes practice and I have to, takes some time to convince people that it will work, but you have to work at it.
[00:45:02] Speaker C: Yeah. So a couple of thoughts on that point. I tell people all the time in clinic, like, our brains are going to think when we're waiting to fall asleep, like nobody's going to. If your goal is to like make it so your brain isn't thinking before you fall asleep, it's not going to happen. So it really is more about what you're allowing your brain to do as you're waiting to drift off to sleep because we're all thinking.
But then there's an app called CBTI coach that the VA puts out. And I think they have one called Insomnia coach. Now, it's a free app that the VA, Department of Defense and Stanford University created. And it has a button that's like when you go to the homepage, it says tools. And then within tools, one of the tools is quiet your mind. And that's so appropriate for this because like we do people all the time saying, my mind's just going, I can't get it to shut down. All the tools they have left listed, there's like progressive muscle relaxation, diaphragmatic breathing, mindfulness exercises and a variety of different ones. And I tell people all the time, download the app, play around with those tools and see which one works best for you.
[00:46:07] Speaker B: Oh, I can't wait to use that. I can't wait to explore that. Thank you. Any more resources before we close? Any books, any websites, sites that you recommend? Any apps for your phone?
[00:46:17] Speaker C: Yeah, I think I'm a big fan of mindfulness exercise. I think it's a good way to kind of practice being in the moment.
It really helps with a lot of different things, like depression, anxiety, and sleep. And so there's a mindfulness based therapy for insomnia that Doctor Jason Ong produced, but there's also apps for that. Headspace is one that I've heard a lot of people using. It is like a free, kind of like you were saying, there's a free portion and then, you know, kind of a pain portion.
But I think any. Any skills that you can develop in making sleep a little bit easier, you know, are helpful.
[00:46:55] Speaker B: And I think sometimes providing a variety to people, because a lot of times I will have students come in and they'll say things like, well, I've tried that and it didn't work. And what it is is they tried it once or twice, you know, and so I think having a variety gives them some hope that this will work eventually.
[00:47:14] Speaker C: Yeah, you know, definitely.
[00:47:16] Speaker B: Hey, thank you for being on the show. It goes by so fast. I say it every week, but it really does go by fast. And I think sleep is something that's so important, you know, and in functioning, especially for students. So I hope that people who are listening, if you're a student and you need help with sleep, that you'll reach out to somebody here at the counseling center or at UAB if you're listening in the Birmingham area, even though there's a long wait for the sleep clinic, I mean, the sleep study suite, how hard is it to get into the clinic?
[00:47:50] Speaker C: I encounter a lot of the same issues where there's a little bit of a wait for a new patient visit. I think that's just because so many people experience problems with their sleep. It's such a prevalent condition. And so despite having four or five clinical psychology graduate students as seeing patients under my supervision, we're able to see a lot more people that way.
[00:48:11] Speaker B: But the demand is high.
[00:48:13] Speaker C: It still speaks to the demand if people are, you know, if it takes six months or so.
So there's a little bit of a way. But the thing that I do like, at least about the behavioral sleep medicine approaches is once you learn these skills, you have it for the rest of your life. And that's something that I tell people over and over and over again where, you know, instead of taking a sleeping pill or something to help with your sleep, you know, you just have to commit. Most people we see four or five visits, you know, within four or five visits, we can impart everything that they need to know.
[00:48:43] Speaker B: So, yeah, that's good to know. It's not forever, right?
[00:48:46] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:48:46] Speaker B: This is great. Hey, thanks again for being on the show. I really appreciate it. This is fun. I love talking about sleep. I really do. I love talking about sleep because everybody has dealt with something most people can relate to, having a sleep issue at some point in their life.
[00:49:02] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:49:04] Speaker B: Hey, don't forget our shows are recorded and podcasted on apple podcasts, audioboom.com, and on voices ua.edu. just type in brain matters and you'll find some of our past shows. There's also a link to voices ua.edu on our counseling center's website at counseling ua.edu. and I always like to thank the people who've made the show possible. Of course, I mentioned our executive director, doctor Greg vanderwal, and my producer tonight, Kathryn Howe. I missed her in the last couple of weeks. I really needed her help, so I appreciate her being back tonight. My colleagues here at the counseling center, Katherine Ratchford, edits our shows for us at WVUA. So I really appreciate her every week. She does a great job. And my guest tonight, doctor justin Thomas. And don't forget, we're on again next week and we're talking about something I really don't know a whole lot about. So I'm fascinated. Neuroplasticity, what is it and why does it matter? So that's going to be a fun show, I hope. And interesting tune back in. We'll be here, same place, same time next week. Thanks again for listening to brain matters and good night.
[00:50:19] Speaker A: This show was not intended as a substitute for professional counseling. Further, the views, opinions and conclusions expressed by the show hosts or their guests are their own and not necessarily those of the University of Alabama, its officers or trustees. Any views, opinions or conclusions shared on the show do not create a relationship between the host or any guest and any listener, and such a relationship should never be inferred. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, please contact the UA counseling center at three four eight 3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective counties crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
