Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling and no relationship is created between the show hosts or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863 if you are not a UA student, please contact your respective county's crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
[00:00:43] Speaker B: It's 06:00 and time again for brain matters, the official radio show of the UA Counseling center. We are broadcasting from the campus of the University of Alabama. Good evening. My name is Doctor BJ Guenther and I'm the host of the show along with my colleague and producer Katherine Howell. And in case you don't know, this show is about mental and physical health issues that affect college students and in particular UA students. So you can listen to us each Tuesday night at 06:00 p.m. On 90.7 FM, or you can listen online at wbuafm ua.edu and you can also download the myTuner radio app and just type in wVUaFM 90.7. We only have a few shows left for this semester. It is winding down and it has gone by fast. We probably got maybe four or five more shows left for the spring semester. We don't do shows in the summer, but we do shows coming up in the fall. And if you have any show topic ideas, please email those to us at brainmattersradiofm ua.edu and I'll try to remember to give this out periodically. The email address out if you just have any questions in general, but we always are asking listeners for help with show ideas and what you want to listen to and what you want to hear us talk about. Again, that's brain mattersradiovuafm ua.edu and tonight's topic is another interesting topic about relationships. It feels like we've for the last three, two or three shows we've been on a relationship journey, I would say. But tonight is another interesting topic that I never really thought about until recently. But I think I have some students who are engaging in this or having some issues with this. We haven't really identified it, but the topic tonight is breaking free from love addiction. It's characterized by craving, pathological jealousy, insecurity, excessive obsession with one's love interest or intimate partner. Though it's not been officially recognized as a mental disorder, research has found that love addiction shares a path similar to other kinds of addiction and substance abuse disorders. And that's a strong way to say, say that love. I mean, it sounds. It sounds, you know, love addiction, the word addiction in and of itself. We'll talk about that in a minute. But I never really thought about it until I was researching some articles, which I always try to do before the show. It is. It sounds like a very serious issue. And like I said, I think I have a few students I'm seeing actually right now, and I'm interested to talk to our guests tonight so she can give us some insight into love addiction. Emmy Fortin is my guest. Emmy's a breakup and relationship coach. And man. Emmy, I bet you are busy, busy, busy. I know you would be on a college campus. Beyond being captivating author, Emmy is an engaging speaker, drawing from her journey of healing and extensive travels to over 20 countries.
Wow. Yes. I've got a lot of questions about your travels, too. I'm sure we'll get to some of that, too. Tell us about. Thanks for being on the show, first of all.
[00:03:49] Speaker C: Thank you. I'm so excited to share this topic because I really think it's an impactful one.
[00:03:54] Speaker B: I do, too. I do, too. Like I said, after researching it for the show, it just really gave me some insight into some of the issues some of the students I see are dealing with. Possibly. I'll say possibly.
First of all, tell the listeners more about yourself, about your credentials and why you're interested in this topic.
[00:04:17] Speaker C: Sure. So I have a master's in education with a concentration in biology, and I actually taught high school biology for 16 years. Also taught anatomy and physiology. So I'm a huge science nerd.
[00:04:30] Speaker B: Nothing wrong with that.
[00:04:31] Speaker C: Yeah. And, you know, based on my own personal experience in a long, long term, kind of toxic relationship, my passion just really got pulled toward helping people with relationship issues and struggling through breakups. I personally was in a relationship where I was going through breakups repetitively with the same person over and over.
And so it really was a cycle. So I decided to leave teaching, and now I coach people. This is my business full time because it really has the capability to impact the trajectory of your entire life based on how you choose to deal with it. So I feel blessed to work with people in this area.
[00:05:14] Speaker B: And like you said, for a long time, it can impact for years. Yes, this can impact people. And, you know, let's just start out of the gate with what is love addiction? How when I was reading and doing some research about love addiction, how is that different? And I don't know any other way to say this because I'm blunt. How is love addiction different from, like, stalking?
[00:05:38] Speaker C: Okay, so actually, I hadn't even thought about it like that. Because as you're bringing. No, because you're bringing about, like, some different components, I would say.
So in general. First, if we understand, like, you were kind of alluding to an addiction in general. Right. Is anytime we're using something outside of ourselves to make ourselves feel a certain way, and usually we want to feel better or, you know, we want to feel certain feelings. And so if it's a substance like drugs or alcohol, then you feel a high.
And this is similar in other forms of behavioral addictions, too, like gambling, porn, sex addiction. And so. So in love addiction, you are essentially using this other person, or even an idea of a person or a relationship to kind of get that high to help you feel the way you want to feel. And I would say the piece that is addictive is the compulsion to want to do it, even though you know it is not good for you.
[00:06:39] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, that makes sense.
[00:06:42] Speaker C: Yeah. That can evolve into more obsessive behaviors. You know, like, you mentioned stalking. But if we look at synonyms of the word addiction in general, obsession, fixation, and dependence are all other words that describe it.
[00:06:57] Speaker B: Yeah. And I guess stalking is a whole nother session, a whole nother show, I always say. But just like, some of the things I was reading is, you know, if you're obsessed with somebody. And we'll get to this. It, you know, closer to the end of the show, probably. But how do you break free from that? That's what we're talking about, basically. What does it stem from? Like, what do you think causes it? Some of the articles I read, and let me see if I can pull a couple of these. Talk about sometimes childhood trauma, sometimes, I guess fear of abandonment, maybe. I have many students who talk about that. Like, they really do have a fear of being lonely, and so they're willing to be in a relationship at any cost, you know, just to keep from being lonely. One of the things I read also is media exposure causes it. Have you ever heard of that? I didn't really understand that. Like, apart, it said, apart from neurobiological and emotional factors, certain social precipitators can also lead to the development of love addiction.
[00:08:11] Speaker C: Well, I suppose, like any, you know, any kind of thing that you're exposing yourself over and over that gives this kind of dopamine hit. You know, you can become fixated on it. So, yeah, I can see where that could be.
[00:08:24] Speaker B: But the childhood trauma, have you heard that? Is that a factor?
[00:08:29] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:08:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:30] Speaker C: So I would say in general, you know, addiction is a behavior that oftentimes starts as something in the mind which is a response to something painful inside of yourself. So it could be a trauma. It could be a painful life event that you went through. It could be the end of a relationship, or it could be a truth that just is really painful that you don't want to face.
[00:08:51] Speaker B: Like what? Not to put you on the spot.
[00:08:54] Speaker C: But, yeah, well, I mean, it could be a truth about yourself that maybe you haven't forgiven yet or come to accept something that you just don't want to look at.
And so you try to escape it instead through whatever thing that you're using, whether it's a substance, a person, a behavior.
[00:09:14] Speaker B: Do you think has any of your research or any of your experience, do you think there's a genetic factor?
[00:09:22] Speaker C: So I'm not an expert in that field. However, I have definitely read things about the genetic predisposition to addiction in general.
But something that I think is really important to note is that when you start engaging in this kind of a relationship, you get these hits of dopamine. The author of the book Dopamine Nation actually talks about how there's so many things in our society that gives us these hits. But if, let's say you're seeing this person and you're starting this cycle and it continues, you're starting to create this dopamine imbalance in your brain and in your body. And so that can also contribute a lot to that addictive behavior.
[00:10:08] Speaker B: Yeah, and then it's hard, once it's triggered, it is very hard to stop it from being triggered. I don't know any other. I mean, that really sounds unprofessional from someone who has a doctorate to say, but it's true. It's just as simple as that. It's just. That's where the addiction comes in. It sounds like common sense, but it's way. It goes way deeper than that. Think that's why it's so hard to break that. You know, it's really. Yeah.
[00:10:35] Speaker C: And I think it is worth, like, really making the point here that when you're in this kind of a relationship or even going through breakups, there is a huge chemical component happening inside your body in addition to the things that you're battling in your mind. So, you know, I know personally, I was really frustrated with myself that I couldn't just quit this relationship and, like, what was wrong with me. Why can't I just leave him? And, like, I know this isn't good for me. And so, you know, those thoughts contribute to your own kind of self destruction because you're, you know, you're, you're losing your own self worth because you're like, why am I doing this? Right.
[00:11:13] Speaker B: Well, and probably, did you have friends or family members who also were saying this to you?
[00:11:20] Speaker C: Oh, absolutely.
[00:11:21] Speaker B: I know. I know. It's like, how do you ignore that? You know? Because I'm thinking of some of the students I'm seeing now who have told me something like this. They, they are aware of what is going on, and I think that's the frustration. They're aware of what is happening, but either they're not willing to stop it because of that fear or they don't know how to stop it. And there could be a factor, I guess there could be a factor of fear from the partner that they're engaged with that they're obsessed with, you might say. But, yes, I think, did you start, and I'm getting real personal, TMI, but did you ever hide information from family or friends because they were getting frustrated with you? Possibly, or they just got tired of hearing it?
[00:12:11] Speaker C: Yeah. That was one thing I was going to bring up, is that to make it even harder is because, you know, you're not doing what you, you know, making the choices you should be. There's this element of shame that comes in, too, and it's like, the people who love you most, it's like, why would you want to tell them that you're back with that person again? Oh. And so sometimes you might even start to retreat from your family or friends or you, you know, you stop disclosing that, spending time with that person. And so that's a whole other, you know, thing that you gonna have to deal with is those feelings of shame and self judgment and just don't want to hear it.
[00:12:46] Speaker B: Just don't want to hear it. Like, you know it. So you just don't want to be told that again because you don't know what you're going to do about it. You know, I think some people are in such turmoil, they just don't know what they can do or what they're going to going do to about it. So they just don't want to talk about do it anymore. Hey, let's take our first break, and when we come back, let's talk about your memoir, if that's okay. Let's really get into that. I want you to talk more about how that came about, how you named it, and just some of the details. So we'll be right back. You're listening to brain matters on 90.7 the capstone wvuafm tuscaloosa.
[00:13:29] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling, and no relationship is created between the show hosts or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863 if you are not a UA student, please contact your respective countys Crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
[00:14:08] Speaker B: You're back listening to brain riders on 90.7 the Capstone. I'm Doctor BJ Gunther, and we're talking tonight about breaking free of love addiction. And if you have any questions or upcoming topics for our shows, email those to us at brainmattersradiofm ua.edu. And my guest tonight is joining us after writing her memoir, which is called who is your red one woman's quest to break up with a love addiction? She's Emmy Fortin. So, Emmy, tell us how you came up with that title.
[00:14:41] Speaker C: Yeah, so it's near and dear to my heart.
When I was in that on and off kind of toxic relationship, I started writing to help myself process my emotions, and I did a ton of journal writing. But there was this one morning where I woke up and I'm a salsa dancer. And I was, you know, with a partner who was also a salsa dancer. And so there was a lot of, you know, passion and a lot of dancing. Yeah. And so the image of the red dress just kind of popped into my head one morning as I looked over at him. I was like, he's exactly like a red dress. And so then all of a sudden, all of these words and phrases just started coming into my mind from the left and the right. And I went, and I went to another room, and I just wrote this story as this dress was a metaphor for this man. And that one short, tiny little story was the seedling for my entire memoir.
[00:15:40] Speaker B: What are some, I asked, I had a person on last week talking about narcissistic relationships, and I asked her, and she had written a book, and I asked her what the title of some of her chapters were. What are some of the titles of your chapter chapters in your book?
[00:15:56] Speaker C: Oh, wow.
[00:15:57] Speaker B: I'm just curious.
[00:15:57] Speaker C: Couple years since I've written it now, but no. Well, my favorite chapter is called flying solo in Spain.
It was kind of like the turning point chapter, but some of the beginning ones are New York, New York, where it all started.
Let's see. Boundaries.
[00:16:14] Speaker B: Boundaries. That's probably one of the most important chapters in the book, right?
[00:16:20] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:16:21] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. How about the therapeutic aspect? You said you wrote it while you were with somebody, but how therapeutic was writing the book? And did it help you break up with him?
[00:16:35] Speaker C: Absolutely. So, first off, it was extremely cathartic to be writing through all of my feelings, but also portraying, because it was being written in the third person. I mean, it's a memoir, but it reads like a spicy novel. Kind of like, you know, Sex and the City vibe.
Yeah. And so while I was writing it, you know, because it was in the third person, it helped me to gain different perspectives, you know? And I was trying to write from my ex partner's perspective as well. And I was trying to paint the story in a light as kind of balanced as possible. You know, I. I wasn't trying to, like, paint him as a victim or anything like that. I mean, as a villain or anything like that. So just the practice of that third person writing was actually very helpful for me to come to a place of forgiveness with him and also with myself, because I could. I could better understand why the characters were doing what they were doing.
So that was actually really huge for me. And I actually help people do that now. I help them write their story in the kind of creative memoir style, because sometimes we're just journal writing. We can get stuck just writing the same over and over again.
[00:17:46] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's why people quit writing in journals. Or if you suggest journal writing, they like, oh, I've already done that, and it didn't work.
[00:17:51] Speaker C: Right? Yeah.
[00:17:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:17:53] Speaker C: So this was a whole new way for me to share parts of myself that I had never shared before with some, with my family, for sure, and some of my friends, you know, people who knew me from the outside. You know, I look like I have my. All of my stuff together, you know, perfectly from the outside, but I was like, even in the book, I say there were, like, dumpster fires inside of my body, you know, when it was happening, and you wouldn't know that looking at me from the outside. And so sharing that story was just, like a huge weight, you know, released from inside.
[00:18:27] Speaker B: Well, can you remember, like, what was the first realization for you about what was happening?
That it was a problem, I guess.
[00:18:38] Speaker C: You know, pattern started right off, like, pretty soon into the beginning. I mean, we had only been seeing each other for three to six months, and I initiated the first breakup because I could see it wasn't in alignment with what I wanted for myself.
But then, you know, there was reconciliation, and, you know, we got back together, and then we broke up again. And then that cycle just started to happen over and over. And once I was getting more heavily into it, it became that much harder to pry myself away over time. And overall, that relationship was on and off for about six years.
[00:19:14] Speaker B: Long time. That's a long time.
[00:19:16] Speaker C: Long time.
[00:19:17] Speaker B: One of the articles I read talks about the signs of love addiction, and one of the signs that stood out for me, and I wanted to get your opinion on this, is engaging in maladaptive behaviors to express love. What is. Do you know what that means?
[00:19:36] Speaker C: Well, I'm.
I don't know. I have, like, an exact definition, but I would assume that that is talking about if you're engaging in behaviors or even going along with things that you're not comfortable with, or maybe that you wouldn't choose for yourself, but maybe you're trying to, you know, pacify the other person or you just. You don't want them to leave so you're willing to kind of put up with whatever.
[00:20:04] Speaker B: I see that a lot. I see that often.
And, I mean, some of the other signs are pretty obvious. We've kind of already talked about it. Being anxious about being abandoned by your partner, having obsessive thoughts about your partner love interest. We've already talked about connecting your life, purpose, and happiness with your partner.
[00:20:24] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:20:25] Speaker B: That is a big one, isn't it?
[00:20:26] Speaker C: And I would love to point out these things that you're saying. These are also symptoms of codependency. So, like, I never realized until after I wrote the book, until after I was out of the relationship. Like, once I started reading and understanding about attachment styles and codependency and the different dynamics that can happen in a relationship, I was like, oh, my gosh, it's so obvious. So obvious.
[00:20:53] Speaker B: How do you guide your clients, you know, through the challenging process of breaking free from love addiction? How do you do that?
[00:21:02] Speaker C: So I actually have a proven three step process, and you can just remember it from red. R e D.
The first kind of thing. It's not like you have to do them any particular order, but you do need to do all three at the same time. So the r stands for restore, which means that you have to restore the connection with yourself. So much of addictive behaviors is going outside of yourself and bringing in. So the first step we have to do is reconnect internally. The second thing, e stands for elevate, which means, what are you learning in this situation? This circumstance, what you need to learn more of. Is it a skill? Is it a realization that you need to make? And also, where do you need to grow? And then the D is dare, which is, how do you need to get out of your comfort zone? You might feel super uncomfortable, but what do you need to do to put yourself on a new path or to learn new habits and behaviors?
So those are the. There's lots of tools and strategies within each one, but you really do need to be doing all three components.
[00:22:11] Speaker B: What do you think is the hardest component for someone, for your clients, what is the hardest one, do you think? Is it the day or.
[00:22:20] Speaker C: Yeah, I would say, well, just being uncomfortable with really depends on the person. But for some people, it's like getting radically honest about what's going on inside of them. That is the hardest part that most people don't really want to face. They try to avoid at all costs. But then once you're at that place, it becomes easier to do the dare and to do the uncomfortable things, because now you're at this place where internally, you know, you need to support yourself.
[00:22:50] Speaker B: Yeah. And, I mean, I tell my students, you know, sometimes you have to be uncomfortable with being uncomfortable. And they just look at me like I have lobsters coming out of my ears. You know, when I say that some of the other signs that I picked up on were avoiding emotional intimacy, which is kind of, to me, when I was reading about love addiction, to me, it just kind of sounded the opposite, because I was thinking, you know, if you're. You're trying to be too close to somebody, so what? How would avoiding emotional intimacy be different? Does that make sense?
[00:23:29] Speaker C: Yeah. Well, I mean, so, again, if we're looking at the attachment styles, sometimes the characteristics of each one can create that dynamic. So I was more of an anxious attachment, which the fear of abandonment was like, the root cause of all my behaviors.
[00:23:48] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:23:49] Speaker C: The partner at the time was more of an avoidance. So someone who wants to be loved and experience love, but also pulls away, and each person's reactions just feed into the other ones.
[00:24:02] Speaker B: That's why it lasted six years, on and off.
[00:24:05] Speaker C: Yeah. And so it can really be this push and pull back and forth, back and forth, you know, for all different kinds of the dynamics that exist.
[00:24:17] Speaker B: And one of the articles I think I read or somewhere when I was doing the research, it mentioned dating apps. Do dating apps contribute to love addiction at all? Is there a connection, I would say absolutely.
[00:24:31] Speaker C: They have an addictive quality so that they could definitely contribute to love addiction. Like, the gamification of the app gives that dopamine release I was talking about also just, like, giving this false idea that there's just, like, endless options out there, and you can just kind of, like, pick one, find a new one, or, you know, fomo or, like, a grass is greener somewhere else.
But I know I had to personally take breaks from the apps, and I recommend that my clients do the same to reconnect with themselves, because get totally immersed in the obsession with finding that partner.
[00:25:11] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, I am not hearing. There was a time a few years ago, maybe before COVID even, where every student I was seeing was talking about Tinder or some app, and you're right, they were talking about. It's almost like they thought that was the answer. And now I hardly ever hear them talk about it. It's like that was just a phase, and they went through it, and now they're on to something, you know, I mean, that. That's just my experience. I really don't hear them talking about the data apps much anymore.
[00:25:41] Speaker C: I'm glad to hear that because it's pervasive in people of my age, like midlife and all these millennials and even Gen x there, because, you know, they're coming out of marriages that are like, 20 or 30 years long, and now they're like, where in the world am I going to meet a partner if not on a dating app?
[00:25:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
Let's take our second break, and when we come back, I want to talk about your trip to Spain. You're transforming trip to Spain. Let's get to the good stuff. To traveling. We'll be right back. You're listening to brain matters on 90.7 the capstone wvuafm tuscaloosa.
[00:26:26] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling, and no relationship is created between the show hosts or guests and any listeners. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863 if you are not a UA student, please contact your respective county's crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
[00:27:04] Speaker B: Hey, you're back listening to brain matters on 90.7 the Capstone. If you have any questions for us, our topic tonight is breaking free from love addiction. But if you have any questions or you have ideas for show topics in the future, email those to me at brainmattersradiofm ua.edu. I'll consider your topic, of course, tonight. Like I said, we're talking about breaking free from love addiction, and my guest is Emmy Fordon. Emmy's an author. We just talked about the title of her memoir. That's hard for me to say is, who is your red dress? One woman's quest to break up with a love addiction. And in her book, she talks about her transformative solo trip, which sounds terrifying to me, to Spain. But it was a crucial role for self discovery. How do you use this journey to help others and talk a little bit about how you came up with Spain and. And going by yourself? How'd you get the courage to do it?
[00:27:59] Speaker C: Yeah, it was. I was definitely fearful. I had never even taken, you know, I live just outside of Boston, and I had never even taken the Boston subway by myself. So new country, where I didn't really know the language yet, was, like, terrifying. But here's where I think it is really valuable, and it doesn't have to be travel, by the way. I was just using travel as a method to achieve this. I wanted to create an experience for myself that would support my needs at the time. So, for example, I needed to feel a lot more secure in myself because the relationship was, like, all over the place, right? So I said, okay, how can I make myself feel secure? Well, I know if I feel more competent and independent in my own capabilities, then I can have more of a sense of security in myself, right? So I was like, all right, that means I need to challenge myself with something that I may not think I would ever be able to do and prove to myself that I can do it. And that's exactly what happened when I went there and figured everything out. You know, I gave myself a lot of structure. It's not like I just went there and, you know, plopped myself in the middle of nowhere. You know, I took spanish classes every morning, so I was with, you know, a group of people, and then I could go kind of excursion in the afternoon. But I developed this sense of competence and independence that I didn't have before I went, and that helped me fulfill my need at the time. So I help people create experiences that are built with intention. What do you need to feel right now? And how can you supply that to yourself? Not getting it from another person. How can you supply that feeling to yourself?
You know, where, what do you want to learn? How can you grow? What kind of experience would support these needs.
[00:29:56] Speaker B: What other. What other experiences would be an example besides travel?
[00:30:02] Speaker C: Yeah. You know, for some people, it might be making more friends, growing your social network, especially for people who have been in a love addiction. You might have isolated. You might have, you know, this person might be, like, your whole world. So maybe you need to make your social network larger. I know that's something that I did. I was very intentional about that. I was like, who do I want to draw into my life? I knew I wanted someone who was more of, like, a mentor. I knew I wanted to bring in more women into my life who were, like, very sure of who they were. And so I intentionally sought out these type of people to bring into my life as friends.
[00:30:42] Speaker B: Did you do that through, like, because people. Students are asking me all the time, and, of course, we're on a college campus, and even though they think it's hard to meet people, being on a college campus provides you more opportunities, I think, than out in the real world. I don't know any other way to say it. So how did you pull more people in? Did you join clubs? Did you join social media groups? How did you do that? Like, literally?
[00:31:12] Speaker C: Yeah, I definitely put myself out there. What I noticed was there was an internal shift that happened with me first that then kind of attracted these people into my life. Like, they kind of came out of nowhere, you know? So I was also a Zumba instructor for many, many years. Yes, I do zoom.
Yeah. And I've always been more of an introvert. And so if people would have come up and talked to me after class, I kind of would have, like, quickly gotten through the conversation and then, like, tried to get out of it as soon as possible.
[00:31:43] Speaker B: Yeah, right. Yeah.
[00:31:44] Speaker C: But instead, I pushed myself out of my comfort zone to be able to notice, hey, these people are coming up to me after class and are talking to me. Why don't I sit here with this discomfort and make the conversation longer and accept the fact that they're here talking to me? And literally, when I started changing my own way, I was showing up. One person invited me to a concert. I would have normally said no because I didn't know her. I would have been like, oh, thank you so much. That's really nice of you, but, no, I'm all set. But instead, I said, sure, I'll go with you. And then she's still one of my best friends. Now another girl, you know, from the same class came up, and she literally was like, I think we could be good friends. And I was like, okay. And I know, that doesn't happen for everybody. But the point is that there was an internal shift first, and that is.
[00:32:33] Speaker B: That's the. That's the key. That's the key right there. Convincing someone that they have that power to shift it. I can see that. I'm thinking about how I'm going to use this, what you're talking about with my students right now, because convincing them, and Katherine can probably attest to this, too. Just convincing them to take that step like you're talking about, that's very uncomfortable. If you can get past that first step, it'll be great. That'll be good. But it's just getting them to trust you to try to get them to do what's uncomfortable for them. It's so hard.
[00:33:09] Speaker C: Right? And that's the d of the red. Like, you have to dare. Like, if you want to get out of your situation, if you want to change your life, if you want to put yourself on a new path for anything, you have to be willing to be uncomfortable temporarily so that you can elevate to that next level of you and what's available to you. Like, you're missing out on tons of opportunities if you don't allow yourself to do that.
[00:33:35] Speaker B: I mean, that's how you build self esteem. That's how you build self esteem.
The trip to Spain, though, how long were you there?
[00:33:44] Speaker C: So I went two summers in a row, actually, in the first summer, I went for three weeks, and I went to three different cities a week in each one.
[00:33:52] Speaker B: This is starting to sound like eat, pray, love, y'all. It is.
[00:33:55] Speaker C: Oh, it's very similar.
[00:33:56] Speaker B: It's very similar. When's the movie coming out? And who's gonna. Drew Barrymore. For those that are listening, I think you look a little like Drew Barrymore. So I've gotten that a lot. Have you? You have? Yeah. Just hit me while you were talking. I was like, oh, my God. She looks like Drew Barrymore. I've got to tell her. But there you go. There you go. What about the other countries you said you've been to, like, 20 countries. What is the next country you want to go to and why that you haven't been to?
[00:34:24] Speaker C: That I haven't been to? I was gonna say, well, actually, I'm going back to Spain in first two weeks of June, but I can't choose Spain.
[00:34:29] Speaker B: Nope.
[00:34:30] Speaker C: I mean, I definitely. I love. I do love Europe just because it's so easy to, like, hop around everywhere. So I haven't been to Italy yet, and that was. That was on my list before COVID and then COVID happened, but definitely Italy. And I have a cousin who actually lives in Denmark, so that could be. That could be an option to visit.
[00:34:50] Speaker B: That would be cool. What about, you know, like, I talk about college students all the time. What would you tell, you know, college students on how to avoid love addiction? Like, what would you say?
[00:35:04] Speaker C: I would say, first of all, download my free cheat sheet, because what is it? It's a relationship cheat sheet, and it has four quadrants. And I cannot stress enough that the more you know yourself and the more confident you are in yourself, the easier relationships are. And so the four quadrants of the cheat sheet are, number one, you got to know what your core values are.
Number two, you got to have some kind of idea about the characteristics that you would like your partner to have and not have. Like, what are your deal breakers?
The third quadrant, which I think a lot of people miss and get confused with for in the moment feelings, is how do you want to feel as consistently as possible from day to day when you're in a relationship?
And a lot of people make their choices off of the initial part of the relationship with butterflies, and it's exciting and all of the things, and you're making your choices based off of emotions you're feeling in the moment, but you need to step back from those, and you need to say, how do I want to feel from day to day? So, for example, I was feeling all the butterflies all the time, but I was also anxious af. Sorry if we're not supposed to swear. Like, it was to the point where I couldn't function. Right. And so if I look at how do I want to feel from day to day, I want to feel peaceful, and that did not align with the relationship. Right. I wanted to feel secure.
[00:36:42] Speaker B: I think that. Yeah, that's very important. That's very good that you pointed that out. That's good.
Yeah. Because I think you're right. They get confused on the initial feeling and think that it should be. In fact, I've had students ask me, is it gonna. Should it feel like this, you know, after a year?
Because it kind of. You get used to one another after a year or so, you know?
[00:37:06] Speaker C: So, I mean, everybody has that problem. And so that's why you learn tools of how you can relate, you know, communicate and relate with your partner to continue the emotional and, you know, intimacy throughout a longer term relationship.
[00:37:20] Speaker B: Definitely. Definitely. That's great.
[00:37:22] Speaker C: Yeah.
And then that fourth quadrant you can check out, too, is to become an observer, which is, you know, when you're in it. It's like you can't see what's outside of yourself. But like I did in the third person writing of the book, if you can kind of just step out and observe, like, what's happening here, you know, what's the reality versus what I'm being told, can I observe their actions versus just read their words in their text messages? Right. So become an observer of them and of yourself.
[00:37:57] Speaker B: Yeah. I think sometimes professionals like you and I and Katherine even, I think sometimes that's our role, is to let them know what you just said, to become an observer, because I think when they're in the middle of it, I'm not sure, and I hope this doesn't offend any students listening, but I'm not sure at 18 or 19 or 20 that they're going to be able to have the insight to realize that unless I say something like what you just said, learn to be an observer.
[00:38:26] Speaker C: Yeah. And that comes from a lot of reflection. Right. And having someone mirror that reflection back to you.
[00:38:33] Speaker B: Let's take our last break. It's gone by fast, so when we come back, I've still got a ton more questions, but maybe how people can identify love addiction and family and friends would be a good question. We'll be right back. You're listening to brain matters on 90.7 the Capstone, WVUA FM, Tuscaloosa.
[00:39:01] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling and no relationship is created between the show hosts or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863 if you are not a UA student, please contact your respective county's crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
[00:39:40] Speaker B: Hey, you're back listening to brain matters on 90.7 the Capstone. I'm BJ Gunther. We're talking tonight with Emmy Fortin, who is a relationship and breakup coach and an author. Her memoir is called who is your red one Woman's quest to break up with a love addiction? And that's our topic tonight, breaking free from love addiction. We've been talking about some strategies, some ideas of how to recognize a love addiction. But what I want to know is, what if you have a family, a roommate, a friend who you can see what's going on? How do you approach them? Do you just come at them? You know, we talked about in the first segment about people saying things to you or not understanding why you're still staying with the same partner, what do you say to people?
What would you say to your friend?
[00:40:30] Speaker C: So, first off, I think it's important that people always take the stance of listening and really listening so that you're hearing what they're telling you and then trying to mirror back to them and kind of validate how they're feeling versus, like, coming right out the gate with some advice. Right.
[00:40:50] Speaker B: Because this is what I would do. You need to nobody.
[00:40:54] Speaker C: Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. Cause your friends love you and they want to give advice, but just because they're giving you advice doesn't mean it's the right thing for you or that you're ready to hear it.
[00:41:04] Speaker B: No.
[00:41:04] Speaker C: So if you have a friend or family member that is going through something, be someone that they can come to and really, really listen. Now, it doesn't mean you can't offer advice, but maybe you can phrase it the form of asking them questions versus saying, this is what you should or shouldn't do. Right. Like, well, how. How does it make you feel when, you know, you don't hear from him for a week and then, you know, he just, like, texts you back and it's like nothing ever happened? Like, how does that make you feel?
[00:41:33] Speaker B: Right.
[00:41:33] Speaker C: So just ask them questions to bring awareness and create a space where they feel safe to share that with you.
[00:41:40] Speaker B: That's a good suggestion. Well, you know, you mentioned, you've said early on, you know, you were in a toxic relationship, or is. Is that interchangeable? Toxic relationships and love addiction, are those the same thing?
[00:41:54] Speaker C: I mean, I definitely think love addiction is toxic and can be toxic, but I also think there are instances where relationships can be toxic that aren't a love addiction. So, for example, if maybe you don't know how to leave a relationship that's, you know, toxic or violent, you might not be addicted to that person, but you just might not have the tools to know how to choose something else for yourself. Maybe you're a people pleaser, right?
Or maybe you haven't really had a healthy model of what looks like. So you're in a toxic one, and you're like, yeah, this is normal, right?
[00:42:35] Speaker B: That is a big one. You're exactly right. I talk about that a lot with my students who are in relationships and. Or they're just in. Into a new relationship, you know, and they really don't have anybody around them who they can look up to, you know, as, like you said, modeling a healthy relationship now, is there any gender differences?
Do you know what I mean? Like, are there more women who get involved in a love addiction relationship or more men? Are there differences?
[00:43:09] Speaker C: I am not sure statistically, but I can tell you that I've definitely worked with both men and women who have more of that tendency toward codependency or, you know, that kind of obsessive kind of ed. Definitely. Actually, I'm going to even retract and be stronger about that now, thinking about the men that I've worked with. And I said, no, it's definitely in men and women both.
[00:43:34] Speaker B: Do you know of any statistics with regards to college students or anything like that who struggle with love addiction versus older populations?
[00:43:48] Speaker C: I don't have statistics, but I would say that when you're still in your more formative years, so high school, college age, it tends to be more prevalent because you might not have acquired the skills yet of knowing how to set boundaries or express yourself.
You might not have that true sense of self or self worth to be able to be okay with letting somebody go if they're not in alignment with how you want to be treated and feel. There's a lot of things that come into play when you're newer at relationships that make it sometimes more challenging.
[00:44:31] Speaker B: Yeah, I never. I really couldn't find a whole lot of information or research about that or specific age groups really that much.
[00:44:40] Speaker C: When I looked briefly, it did seem to be like women or girls more in, like, the high school, college age, could be more prone to it.
[00:44:49] Speaker B: I can see that. I could see that. When I was introducing you and the topic tonight, I mentioned that love addiction is not, you know, an official diagnosis or anything like that. Do you think it should be?
[00:45:06] Speaker C: So I think it's always helpful to have, like, a really clear understanding of maybe, you know, why am I behaving the way I am. And so sometimes a diagnosis can do that, but I also do strongly feel that sometimes putting a label on something can make us feel like, oh, there's something wrong with me. And it's. It's really an internal thing that you can shift. You just need to acquire the skills and the tools and the have the openness and willingness to get down to the nitty gritty hard work.
[00:45:43] Speaker B: And it is hard work. I mean, you know, you being a relationship and breakup coach, do people come to you fresh out of a breakup?
[00:45:52] Speaker C: They do, yeah. I have some people who have been struggling to let go of a past relationship, and they just haven't been able to move on. But a lot of my clients do come out of a relationship that, you know, if. If you've never been through one or if you have, you can understand that it can be the most overwhelming thing that you ever deal with.
[00:46:12] Speaker B: Experience? Yeah.
[00:46:13] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:46:13] Speaker B: Do you ever, as a, as a coach, do you ever get frustrated with the clients?
[00:46:21] Speaker C: You know, I don't think I've experienced that too much just because I know how it feels to be so miserably.
[00:46:34] Speaker B: Miserable and how long it takes to come out of it.
[00:46:40] Speaker C: Yeah. It's almost like I've been through all of those phases, you know, not to say that my experience is the same as everybody else's. Everyone's is unique, but I have been at my lowest point when I was dealing with that, and so I know the phases I had to go through and the things that I needed to learn. And so I think that just gives me more patience in understanding where someone is in that journey.
[00:47:08] Speaker B: I think you're right. I have someone I'm working with in my private practice, and it's feeling like this now that we're talking about it, and it's been several years, and sometimes I think it just takes that much time for people to get sick and tired, being sick and tired and fed up, you know, with it, along with the factors we've talked about that they have to put into place before they have the strength and the courage and the will and the insight to get out or to just not be in that relationship.
[00:47:38] Speaker C: I think one key thing I would love, like, whoever is listening to this to really, really reflect on, is that there's got to be an element of action that you are taking if you ever want to help yourself with whatever it is you're going through. But, you know, it's. I think it's extremely helpful to, you know, talk to friends, talk to a professional, you know, like a therapist or coach.
But until you take the actions that either, you know, someone is recommending to you or you're just like, you know what? I need to make a decision that I'm going to take tiny, tiny, tiny little steps to help myself every day. Those will accumulate over time.
[00:48:26] Speaker B: I think you're right.
[00:48:27] Speaker C: But you can't just talk about it.
[00:48:29] Speaker B: You can't talk about action. Well, first of all, everybody around you will get tired of you just talking about it and not taking action, and they'll not want to be around you. They'll not want to be. They'll throw up their hands because they don't know what else to do. You know, they'll lose patience. I think.
[00:48:45] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. People do lose patience because they don't know. They don't know how to show up for you.
[00:48:50] Speaker B: They don't know what it's like. Do you have any resources for listeners? Do you have any other books besides your own websites, other podcasts, apps, anything?
[00:49:02] Speaker C: Yeah. So I actually have four self reinvention guided journals. I know we talked about journaling earlier, but, um, these journals have prompts that can specifically help you start to see your breakup or dating in different ways that you might not have thought of before. So it's not just like writing on blank pages.
And so those are journals meant to help you depending on what stage in your journey that you're in. So there's a breakup one, there's a dating one, there's a love being you, one for selfie esteem, there's a be confident and happy one. So those are some places where you can start your self discovery. I also have some free resources on my website, which is the relationship cheat sheet. I also have a mini guide, three things you can do now to get over your breakup. So those are great places to start.
[00:49:56] Speaker B: What's your website? Emmy.
[00:49:58] Speaker C: It is emmyfortin.com. And Emmy is spelled with Emmi.
[00:50:03] Speaker B: Got it. Any other suggestions? Any other books, any other apps that you're aware of?
College students, you know, they love apps.
[00:50:12] Speaker C: So, yeah, I don't have an app. I don't use apps that much. I am like a YouTube university person. Like, I really do use YouTube a lot because I personally like listening to people's stories and then understanding how they moved out of whatever their problem was.
So you can listen to the straight up informational ones, of course. But it also can help to hear someone's story and resonate with it and be like, oh, wow, that person, you know, was in the same kind of situation that I am. This is what they did. Maybe I can try to do some of that, too.
[00:50:49] Speaker B: Do you. Have you done a TED talk?
[00:50:52] Speaker C: No, but I did sign up for a program to try to get one.
[00:50:55] Speaker B: You would be good. You would be excellent. And I think it would be. I hope you get it, because I think you'd be great.
[00:51:02] Speaker C: Thank you. I appreciate that. It was definitely on my envision board.
[00:51:05] Speaker B: Thank you so much for being on the show. I say this every week, but it goes by really fast. It really does go by fast. And we did get to most of the questions I had, and we didn't have any email questions. A lot of times we'll have some email questions, but we didn't have any tonight. But I hope we've answered a lot of questions for the listeners. And I know I've learned a lot of stuff from you, and I like, I really like the, um, the four quadrants that you mentioned. I'm going to utilize that. Great. And I'm going to take a look at your website too. It's really a good website. I've already looked at it. But if you want to hear more about or learn more about amy, it's emmy Fortin emmifortin.com, correct?
[00:51:48] Speaker C: Yes, that is right.
[00:51:49] Speaker B: Thank you so much. Let me make a few announcements and then we'll go. Our shows are recorded in podcast. And don't forget on apple podcasts, audioboom.com and voices dot ua.edu. You can just type in brain matters. You'll find some of our past shows. Thevoices ua.edu is also on our counseling center's website, counseling ua.edu and I always like to thank some people who have made our show possible. First of all, our executive director here at the counseling center, doctor Greg vanderwal, my producer and colleague, kathryn howell, who I'm glad your back this week. She was sick last week and I missed her. Katherine Ratchford, who is, who edits our show for WVUA and the VUA staff. They're great. And of course, my guest tonight, Amy Fortin. Don't forget we're on next week. We've just got a few more shows. Next week's show is gonna be one that I spent a lot of time talking to students about this during the spring when all of my friends are getting engaged and I thought that would be a great show for to do. So. Hopefully we'll have that for you next week. Come back and join us. I appreciate you listening. Thanks for everything. And you've been listening to brain matters on 90.7. Good night.
[00:53:08] Speaker A: This show was not intended as a substitute for professional counseling. Further, the views, opinions and conclusions expressed by the show hosts or their guests are their own own and not necessarily those of the University of Alabama, its officers or trustees. Any views, opinions or conclusions shared on the show do not create a relationship between the host or any guest and any listener, and such a relationship should never be inferred. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, please contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863 if you are not a UA student, please contact your respective counties Crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance.
