Brain Matters S10.E12: Setting Boundaries and Self-Sabotage

[00:00:00] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling and no relationship is created between the show hosts or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863 if you are not a UA student, please contact your respective county's Cris service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room. [00:00:43] Speaker B: Again for brain matters, the official radio show of the UA Counseling center. We are broadcasting from the campus of the University of Alabama. Good evening. My name is Dr. BJ Gunther and I'm the host of the show along with my colleague and producer Catherine Howell, who is not with us tonight, but she'll be back with us next week. And in case you don't know, this show is about mental and physical health issues that affect college students and in particular UA students. So you can listen to us each Tuesday night at 06:00 p.m. On 90.7 fm, or you can listen online at wvuafm ua.edu. You can also download the MyTuner radio app and listen that way and just type in WBUAFM, UA and 90.7 and find us that way. I'm announcing early on because our first show for the spring semester was last week and I need some more ideas for upcoming shows. I always solicit listeners to send those into me, and the email address to do that is brainmattersradio at wvuafm ua.edu. And of course I'll consider using your show topic no topic. I don't think any topic is off limits. We've done, in the ten years we've been doing this show, we've done a lot. I don't want to say almost every topic because college mental health trends change and I like to keep up with those trends. So it could be something like depression, stress management, test anxiety, you name it, whatever pertains to college students and we can try to update you on the latest trends with regards to that topic. So if you have an idea again, the email address is brainmattersradio at wbuafm ua.edu. Tonight's topic is one that I think a lot of people may not realize is happening to them until somebody confronts them about it, and there's not been too many occasions, but I'm seeing this more often. The issue that people have with setting boundaries and how that's related to self sabotage and how do you stop that. Tonight's guest is going to help us figure this out. Self sabotage often serves as a coping mechanism that people use to deal with stressful situations and past traumas. And unfortunately, it typically makes problems worse and limits a person's ability to successfully move forward in a healthy way. And tonight, my guest is Laura Connell. Did I pronounce that right? I want to say Connell. So if I messed that up, I'm sorry. Laura. Laura is a trauma informed author and a coach who also helps her clients uncover blind spots that lead to relationship struggles and self sabotage. She writes about healing dysfunctional family dynamics on her website, which is lauracconnell.com, but also in her book, which I don't know how new or recent the book is. It's not your fault. The subconscious reasons we self sabotage and how to stop. And I can't wait to talk to her about this. Thanks, Laura, for being on the show. [00:03:52] Speaker C: Yeah, you're so welcome. The book came out September twelveth. So it's pretty fresh. It's few months fresh. [00:03:58] Speaker B: It is. How's it doing? [00:04:01] Speaker C: It's doing pretty good. It sold about 5000 from what I've gathered from the publisher. So I'm pretty happy. [00:04:09] Speaker B: Well, and also you kind of my first. [00:04:13] Speaker C: Good. [00:04:14] Speaker B: Well, also, how many books are there? Maybe you don't know the answer to this, but how many books are there on self sabotage? Are there many books out there on this topic? [00:04:25] Speaker C: Yeah, there are. And in fact, when I was putting together my book proposal, I referred to a few of them and I differentiated mine because I think it's a little bit different. I don't know if you want me to go into that yet, but you. [00:04:40] Speaker B: First of all, I should have asked you this right off the bat. I gave you a little introduction, but tell the listeners more about yourself, your credentials and why you're interested in this topic. [00:04:50] Speaker C: Sure. Yeah. So I am a trauma informed author and coach and I've been writing about these kinds of self help topics for a few years. So I first considered myself a writer first and foremost. And it was in writing this book that I got into the coaching because first of all, I think my biggest credential is my life experience. And that's what my clients tell me, really helps them feel seen and heard and understood. Because I grew up in a very dysfunctional home, I had a lot of emotional abuse and neglect. This book and the work I do really came out of me doing the research to heal from this. Figure out what the heck was going on with me, how it pertained to what happened to me as a child, how that was playing out as an adult and what I could do to change it. And then I studied psychology and mental health at the undergraduate level and more recently got the life coach training, trauma informed life coach training. So those are my credentials there, and that's how I help people. And that's me in a nutshell. [00:06:10] Speaker B: Unfortunately, your life experience is what gives you credibility, really, is what you're talking about as far as with your clients, because like anybody who talks about how to cope with having a panic attack, it's really hard to take recommendations or advice from somebody who's never experienced it, right? [00:06:35] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. I think it just adds a little dimension of helping people really feel understood because you do know exactly what they've been through. And with dysfunctional families, there are patterns that are just almost identical regardless of the situation. It's really easy to see what's going on and especially if you've been there. So I think it just gives them some comfort knowing that they're not alone in that way. [00:07:06] Speaker B: Yeah. When did you realize that you personally were self sabotaging? How did you realize that? [00:07:16] Speaker C: Yeah, well, because I was sabotaging myself in every area of my life, pretty much. And I didn't know why. I just had this sense that I couldn't do life. I had this sense that other people kind of had the guidebook to life and I didn't. And I really just didn't know how to do it. And so I had problems in my family relationships, and what I didn't know was that my mother was basically a malignant narcissist, a classic narcissist with mental illness on top of that. I don't know if we want to call it borderline anymore or bipolar. [00:08:05] Speaker B: I call it border polar. [00:08:07] Speaker C: There you go. Yeah. And I know they change and evolve as we learn more. And it's from her own childhood trauma. Right. She was very abused and neglected, even worse than I was. But going to therapy at age 19 to try to understand why I couldn't have a functional relationship with my mother and to be given a book on positive psychology and learned optimism, which might be great for someone, but not for me, who was completely traumatized by my childhood and had no idea how to do life. Because the positive psychology book I received had a lot to do with probably what we call CBT, like positive thinking to overcome what you're going through when you're hijacked in your body, fight or flight because of the trauma you've been through. Logic is not going to do it. Logic is not going to take the place. [00:09:08] Speaker B: And that's more of, like, the Pollyanna, the Pollyanna outlook. And I would think it would almost make you feel like they're not listening to me kind of mentality. [00:09:22] Speaker C: Exactly. And the funny thing was that she did a whole intake about my family, like she could see very well all the issues in my family. But then to give me this, I guess, a modality that really wasn't appropriate and really just made me feel worse because I thought, well, now there's something wrong with me. There's a problem with the way I'm thinking, and that's why I can't get things right. And then many therapists I went to after that, encouraging me to have a relationship with my mother, giving me strategies on how to try and get along with someone who is a complete narcissist, incapable of. [00:10:06] Speaker B: That was my next question. Do you coach your clients to have a relationship with their family or to get away from them? [00:10:17] Speaker C: I really go with where they're at at the time. So what their desire is and what they're ready for at the time is what we work with. So I never encourage or tell anyone to go. No contact. It would be very rare for me to do that. But if that's something they feel they need to do in order to move forward, then I could help them through that. Definitely. [00:10:44] Speaker B: Hey, give us some names. This might be an OD question, but in your book, give us some names of some of the chapters. Yeah. [00:10:52] Speaker C: So there's a chapter on fantasizing or maladaptive daydreaming. There's a chapter on love addiction. There's one on family scapegoating. There are attachment styles we look at in chapter two. [00:11:11] Speaker B: Yeah, I can see that one being early on, because attachment styles, that's what would come out first, don't you think? [00:11:19] Speaker C: Yes. And you're right. Exactly. That's kind of the part where I set it up. And then there's boundaries. There's a chapter on boundaries. There's one on toxic people and how to deal with them. [00:11:33] Speaker B: Yes. And I'll be honest, that's what I see. I don't know if I want to say a lot, but I see it often with college students and their relationships, whether it's romantic relationships or friendships, is the toxic relationships. And sometimes I don't necessarily know at that point because we're a brief counseling center here, and sometimes I don't necessarily know if there's been any trauma in that student's history. If they haven't really gone into that. And so that is always kind of an interesting aspect, is to try to educate somebody on what is a toxic relationship. [00:12:15] Speaker C: Exactly. And when you grow up in what I call a dysfunctional home, because most of the people I work with and what I write about is really how growing up in kind of a toxic environment, usually because the parents or caregivers also grew up in a toxic environment. And it's generational how that really follows you around into your adulthood, because the ways that you cope with growing up in that environment turn into self sabotage when you're an adult. And one of those self sabotages is attracting toxic people. So because you're so used to tolerating toxic behaviors in order to survive, that feels very much like home to you. So that's why in the romantic relationship, you might gravitate to someone who really treats you like garbage. Because this feels like home to me. You will friend zone them because it's not attracted to you. You can't figure that out. That doesn't feel like love to you because that's not what you got. [00:13:21] Speaker B: Laura, what do you think? [00:13:22] Speaker C: Are some of the red flags in terms of romantic? [00:13:27] Speaker B: Yes. Yes. Well, I mean, I would think even a friendship, but more likely a romantic relationship. Like, what are some of the red flags that people should be looking for? [00:13:39] Speaker C: Well, the interesting thing is red flags are something those of us who grew up in toxic homes tend to overlook, not see. Instead of seeing them as warning signs, we see them as things to overcome, like challenges to overcome. So the red flags are things that you have to get to know yourself first in order to be able to detect. So you have to know yourself that this is who I am. These are my values. This is what I tolerate. This is what I won't tolerate. And then you take that into your dating life, and you use that as your measure or your barometer to keep yourself safe, basically, and to attract the right people. So red flags, if you are from one of these homes that I'm talking about, can actually be strong chemistry. So if you go in and you're super attracted to this guy, I'm a woman who's attracted to men. So I'll say, this guy, and you can't figure out why he just makes you weak in the knees, but he's kind of a jerk, and he doesn't really pay attention to you. Like, sure, he's good looking, but what is this all about? You realize maybe I had a father who ignored me and who kind of didn't treat me special. So this feels like a situation where I can try and win that love, and so it creates a strong attraction. But if you don't realize that, you just think, wow, I'm so attracted to this person. This is my person. And then you get hurt, and you. [00:15:17] Speaker B: Don'T even realize that. You don't even know it because there's that lack of insight even, I guess you could say, does self sabotage always come from trauma? [00:15:31] Speaker C: I don't know if it always does. What I deal with in my writing and my work is the link between adult self sabotage and childhood trauma. And that's because that's my experience, that's my wheelhouse. That's what I've researched, and that's what I know. So I say, and the research bears this out, that when you have childhood trauma, you develop certain coping skills to deal with it, to actually survive in your child's mind. So when you're a child, you feel like, if you please the parent, that'll keep you safe, because if your parent's not happy, they might abandon you, and then you're in big trouble because you're just a little child who's dependent on them. So that carries with you to adulthood. You stay as a people pleaser, but instead of just pleasing your parents, now you're pleasing every adult around you. And that you feel keeps you safe because you're so scared of rejection that you've been programmed to feel like rejection is life or death, when in fact, as an adult, it's not. It's just rejection, but you feel it in your body. Like, I could die if this person doesn't like me. So let me please them. Abandon myself. And that's the self sabotage. [00:16:49] Speaker B: Give everything to them. [00:16:51] Speaker C: Yes. [00:16:52] Speaker B: You lose yourself, basically. In the words of Eminem, yes. Let's take our first break, Laura. And when we come back, I've got several email questions. We may have already answered a few, but we'll try it again. And also, I want to talk a little bit about, as a therapist, should I go ahead and question people about self sabotage and try to delve more into the background? Even though we are a brief counseling center and trauma is not my specialty necessarily. We are all generalists here at the counseling center, so I want to get your recommendation on that. If you'll just hang on, we'll be right back. You're listening to brain matters on 90.7, the Capstone Tuscaloosa. [00:17:55] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling, and no relationship is created between the show hosts or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863 if you are not a UA student, please contact your respective county's crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room. [00:18:33] Speaker B: Hey, you're back listening to brain matters on 90.7 the Capstone. I'm Dr. B. J. Gunther. We're talking tonight about setting boundaries and self sabotage with Laura Connell. Laurel Connell, sorry. And she is the author of a fascinating new book that was released in September. And I also want you to talk a little bit about your website, too. But the book is called it's not your fault, the subconscious reasons we self sabotage and how to stop. And we just had a conversation about does it always come from trauma? And I don't know if it necessarily does, but that's usually a predecessor to self sabotage, I would imagine. And Laura just answered that. But Laura, as a know somebody like me, working in a counseling center, that's a brief counseling center. I'm a generalist. It's not my specialty. How far should I delve into that? I have a student who. We did talk yesterday. His father has been mentally and emotionally abusive, and his father suffers from PTSD. And that's really all I want to say. But he struggles. And I confronted him yesterday about self sabotage because he was giving me an example. And it's almost like an epiphany to him. It's almost like nobody had ever mentioned that to him. And he said, yes, I think I am doing that. I don't want to say dangerous, but how pressing is it to push this with somebody like him? [00:20:11] Speaker C: Well, it sounds like you used your intuition to make the right choice, the right professional choice to ask, and that it had a positive result. Because I think it's empowering to know that what you're doing to yourself is not necessarily your fault, that what you're doing has a good reason behind it. And I think that can give a lot of hope as well. That if you know that the reason you're, quote unquote, hurting yourself or holding yourself back is that you actually believe that you're protecting yourself, because that's what's happening. It's an inner child inside of you, again, left over from childhood, who is trying to keep you safe the only way it knows how. And these techniques, like I said, the people pleasing, the choosing the wrong partners, all this stuff that we do, it could be procrastination, it could be perfectionism. A lot of things students will relate to. I know they've done a lot of studies on students and procrastination. So you might be thinking to yourself, like, why do I keep doing this to myself in spite of the consequences? Well, it's because that child inside of you really believes that it's keeping you alive with these techniques, because the child inside you think short term, it's not mature and emotionally intelligent, it's thinking, keep her alive. Now, this is what we have to do. Even though it's not really life and death, your body feels that it is because of the conditioning from the trauma in childhood. Whereas if your adult is out, when you heal your inner child and you bring the adult out, the adult is going to have this long range thinking that's going to look out into the future and see, actually, no, this is not good for me. Long term, it might be uncomfortable right now to disappoint someone or whatever it is, but long term, this is going to be good for my life. And this is how we get to have the life we want. Right. And we're not reactive like we're creating the life we want when we have boundaries, when we look long term, when we're not reacting in the moment. And so it's a difference between creating your life and reacting to things in the moment, so you never have the life you want. [00:22:34] Speaker B: You just mentioned boundaries. How does setting boundaries, why is that so important? Why is that so difficult for anybody? I think it's difficult for most people, even people who have not had come from dysfunctional families. Why do you think that's so difficult? [00:22:53] Speaker C: Yeah, well, my belief is that if you don't have boundaries in your life, you will never have the life you want because you are living inauthentically, you are living your life for other people if you don't have boundaries. Yes. And the reason why it's so very difficult is I might be repeating myself, but it goes back to that sense that if I don't please people, starting with my parents, I could literally die. Because the child is dependent on those parents, dependent on them for food, shelter, all of the things that it couldn't provide for itself. So it makes sure that it keeps the parent happy, abandons itself. So this is why adults that grew up in these homes have a poor sense of self. You might, if you're listening, feel empty. Like if you grew up in a home like this, you might feel an emptiness and you might be trying to fill that emptiness with validation from people outside of you, but you're getting the validation. It's false because it's just based on what you're giving people that you think they want. That has nothing to do with you. So, again, you're not showing up as yourself. Your needs are never going to get met, and that emptiness is going to continue. [00:24:11] Speaker B: It's like you're not taking up for yourself. [00:24:14] Speaker C: Yeah. You're not at all. [00:24:15] Speaker B: Definitely. [00:24:16] Speaker C: You would be amazed. And I can attest to this because I've been through it, how some people can go through life because their parents didn't give them what they needed, because those parents didn't get what they needed. And it's a shell. You're an empty shell. You have no idea who you are. You might make every decision based on what other people want from you or what you think they want from you. You might not even know what you like to eat. If somebody asks you where you want to go for dinner, you might just think, I wonder where they want to go. Let me say that just very basic self awareness is missing a lot of the time. And that's the first thing that makes boundaries really hard, too. In addition to the fear of rejection, that is very childlike, even though you're an adult, is this sense that I actually don't know who I am, I don't know what I want, I don't know what I like. And that's because nobody encouraged me to explore myself and to accept yourself. Yeah, absolutely. [00:25:22] Speaker B: Are you saying also that self sabotage equals low self esteem? [00:25:28] Speaker C: Yes, 100%. And self sabotage can compound that low self esteem, because when we sabotage ourselves, we beat ourselves up about it. Right. It's like, I did it again. How could I do that again? I'm so stupid. All that cycle. Because you don't know that it's really not your fault. Now, it can be your job or your responsibility to kind of figure it out and to change it in order to have the life you want, but to really give yourself some grace and some compassion as you realize that actually, this might have started when I was two. This is a pattern that there's no way I could have done it any better because nobody taught me. And I think society backs it up a little bit, too. They act as though people come fully formed. They act as though nobody needs to teach you anything. And, in fact, everything we learn is from our parents or from our caregivers. [00:26:35] Speaker B: I know people think us as therapists. That's all we dwell on, is parenting and how you were raised. But it's such a large percentage of what makes a person who they are. It's true. I mean, Freud was right. Yes. If you really want to reference someone. Okay, let's take our first email question. And I think you've answered this for the most part, but somebody asked who is most likely to develop this trait of self sabotage? Yeah. [00:27:15] Speaker C: It would be someone who grew up in a home where they felt like they couldn't be accepted for who they were. So it would be someone who really had to suppress their emotions, their needs, their desires in order to try and win their parents love. Because if you got the sense that you were a burden to your parents or that they didn't really have your back, your needs weren't getting met. You just had to do whatever you could to try to make them happy. So that's part of it. And the other aspects of self sabotage just come from that. Like I said, the toxic people being used to tolerating toxic behaviors. So when you grow up, that feels normal to you to tolerate toxic behaviors. If you had an emotionally neglectful father, for instance, you're going to get into that love addiction that I referred to, where you're very attracted to men who don't treat you well, very repulsed by men who are nice to you, which is tragic, really tragic. [00:28:18] Speaker B: And I hear it often, and I'm puzzled for you personally, Laura. And you can choose not to answer this if you don't want to, but when did you ever realize, or did you ever realize that you were never going to satisfy your mom? [00:28:38] Speaker C: Right. That was a really tough one, because it went on for decades to have a relationship, I'm sure tried everything, and it was actually a woman I knew, and she was older than me, and she had a son who was an adult, and he had a mental illness. I think it was at the time they called it bipolar. I know the terms change. I don't know what they're calling it now. But she said to me, because of her son, she said to me, you know, Laura, when someone has a mental illness, sometimes it's not possible to have a functional relationship with. [00:29:19] Speaker B: Oh. [00:29:19] Speaker C: And that was just kind of struck me. [00:29:22] Speaker B: That was the light bulb moment, wasn't it? Yeah, it was. [00:29:26] Speaker C: And because she was saying it, in spite of loving her son and being through everything with him, just telling the truth of that, she probably can't have a real relationship with him either. And she knows his limitations and all of that. So that was very liberating for me to be able to see. And I think that was the beginning of me being more open eyed, I suppose, about what I could expect from my mother and her limitations. [00:29:58] Speaker B: I know this may sound strange, but to piggyback on that, and I hate it when people say that. But anyway, did the viewpoint almost turn to where you felt sorry for your mom? A little bit. [00:30:14] Speaker C: It's interesting because I always felt sorry for my mom and because of her narcissism, she always talked about how bad things were for her because she was so self centered. [00:30:27] Speaker B: Right. [00:30:27] Speaker C: So I grew up totally focused on my mother. Yes. Totally enthralled with how terrible she had it. I would tell anyone who would listen. So I always felt sorry for her. And what was even more liberating was to allow myself to feel the anger of how she had treated me, how cruel she had been to me, because I didn't go into that. But there was a lot of mental cruelty. And so allowing myself to actually have sympathy for the little girl in me who was treated to what she gave me. And now, again, I don't feel sorry so much. I don't feel anger. I feel more. I've just kind of let that go. [00:31:11] Speaker B: Pity, even. Pity? [00:31:14] Speaker C: Yeah, I feel tremendous pity that she. Because narcissism is one you probably know as a therapist, is very hard to heal from. Right. [00:31:23] Speaker B: Yes. A lot of it's organic, I think, because of, like you said, the generational. If she's been abused, I mean, who knows how long it's been going on. [00:31:34] Speaker C: Exactly. [00:31:37] Speaker B: Go ahead. [00:31:37] Speaker C: They can't self reflect for some reason. They can't self reflect. [00:31:41] Speaker B: Right. No insight. [00:31:42] Speaker C: No insight. [00:31:44] Speaker B: Here's another question. It kind of goes with the other one about the traits. Are there personality traits or experiences that commonly lead to these behaviors? And maybe it's a little bit of the same of what we're talking about. And the question I'm really interested in, are there personality traits more specific? [00:32:04] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a great question. I haven't really thought about that. But I do get the sense that sensitivity is a trait that would make you very susceptible to being hurt in childhood by this kind of treatment. And that's sort of obvious. Right. But then there's some research that shows that high sensitivity is also a result of childhood trauma. So it could be kind of a catch 22 or a chicken and an egg situation, which came first, but I would call sensitivity is usually present in people who are suffering this way. Yes. [00:32:45] Speaker B: Speaking of insight, do you think a lack of insight on the person's part that's gone through the trauma, even. [00:32:54] Speaker C: Ironically, it's usually more insight. Now, of course, they don't have the insight to understand how their childhood trauma creates the adult self sabotage. Blind spot. Right. That's a true blind spot. And that's another chapter in the book at the beginning called blind spots. Oh, that's a good reference to this. Thanks. Because that's too difficult to understand if you don't know. But they tend to have insight into the dishonesty within the home, within the family system, and they want to get to the bottom of things. And that is often why they're demonized in families like this. So insight is not welcome in a dysfunctional family that's hiding everything. So if you are insightful, you learn that that's not welcome. So what happens is that our greatest gifts say insight, sensitivity. These gifts that the world needs to heal, they get suppressed in families like this because they're not wanted. So these people grow up thinking their greatest gift is their worst trait, and they hide it, they suppress it. And I've heard someone describe it as a unicorn sighing off its horn so it can look like a horse. You know what I mean? [00:34:14] Speaker B: Yes. Poser. Basically. P-O-S-E-R. Poser. [00:34:18] Speaker C: I'm trying to be normal, right. So I'm going to hide the most beautiful quality that the world needs more than anything because it wasn't accepted in my family. [00:34:30] Speaker B: Was your mom like this with everyone? Was she like this? [00:34:33] Speaker C: No. [00:34:33] Speaker B: Difficulty at work with relationships? Was she married to your dad or were they together or divorced? It was just with you. [00:34:46] Speaker C: She had trouble keeping long term relationships because people, it would come out her Dyson way of being. Yeah. Or she would reject them before they could reject her or whatever it was. But she was very mean to me, in particular behind closed doors. And she wasn't very nice to my sister either. But it wasn't as pointed. She more didn't pay attention to my sister, but to me. She really had it in for me and nobody knew about that. She was sweet as pie, very outgoing to other people. Very miss hospitality. She faked it very well, which makes. [00:35:27] Speaker B: It more painful because, you know, let's take our next break, our second break, and when we come back, let's talk a little more. We've got some more email questions. If you're okay with these spontaneous questions that are coming out of left field. You're listening to brain matters on 90.7. Come back after the breakm tuscaloosa. [00:35:57] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling. And no relationship is created between the show hosts or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA counseling Center at 348-3863 if you are not a UA student, please contact your respective county's crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room. [00:36:36] Speaker B: Hey, you're back, listening to brain matters on 90.7 a capstone. I'm BJ Gunther. We're talking tonight with Laurel Laura Connell. Laura is an author and speaker and just an altogether great coach about this topic and maybe other topics, too. But the topic tonight is self sabotage and setting boundaries. And Laura's written a book that sounds amazing. It's not your fault. The subconscious reasons we self sabotage and how to stop. I think this is a timely book. I think it's going to be a book I recommend to my students who I see here and at my private practice, the clients I see at my private practice. Has writing the book been therapeutic for you, Laura? [00:37:20] Speaker C: Yeah, the whole process leading up to this book has been quite therapeutic, because as I told you, I'm a writer by trade. I've been writing my whole life, been published in national newspapers and magazines all over the place, every website you can think of. So I started this journey by writing about it. And it was in 2020 that I really started to write about my family dysfunction. And a lot of that was Covid. A lot of us had our come to Jesus moment during COVID and I said, it's time for me to be public about this stuff, in spite of the fear that my family would retaliate or whatever would happen. So I started to put it out there in the form of a blog. And this amassed a tremendous amount of attention from people who were going through the same things. And so this blog now has like 50,000 visits a month or something like that. [00:38:17] Speaker B: What's the name of the. [00:38:18] Speaker C: Oh, it's my website. So laurakconnell.com. And you just go to the blog. Like, you click on blog and you'll get all the entries from the last few years. And then out of the blog came the book proposal, the agent, the book deal. But there's so much in between that it was such a journey. To answer your question, yes, this is how I healed. But by the time I got to writing the book, I felt already healed, and I felt very tender toward whoever was going to read it. So I remember writing the book, and I would have tears come to my eyes because I felt who I was writing for. I felt like I was writing for one person. And I even wrote in the dedication, this is for you, so you know you're not alone. So whoever reads it, this is really for them. [00:39:13] Speaker B: Yes. Were there ramifications from your family you were worried about? [00:39:18] Speaker C: No. [00:39:19] Speaker B: Surprisingly, I am surprised. Yeah. [00:39:21] Speaker C: And I hope that encourages anyone who's afraid to speak up about what happened to them. It doesn't mean you won't get it, but it might not be as bad as you think. And I had positive feedback from extended family members, old friends, things like that. [00:39:37] Speaker B: I would imagine you might even have some family members who admitted they recognized it also. They recognized your also. [00:39:49] Speaker C: You know what's interesting, though is. Yes, but in a roundabout way. [00:39:53] Speaker B: Right. [00:39:54] Speaker C: Like they would say, you'd be surprised how much I understand. It's sort of cryptic. [00:39:59] Speaker B: Wink, wink. Yeah, exactly. Here's another email question. What therapeutic approach seems most helpful when working with clients who are engaging in self sabotage? You mentioned at the beginning of the show going to a therapist who utilized CBT. That's mostly what we utilize here. But what do you recommend or what do you think works the best with someone who is engaging in self sabotage? [00:40:29] Speaker C: Yeah, the one that I have really used to great effect, both on myself and on my clients. And it's kind of new, I think, the last 15 years or so. And it's called mindful self compassion. And this is a modality that was researched and developed by Dr. Kristen Neff at the University of Texas. And she just has this model, and it's like a three pronged approach, and it's based on self kindness, which is just what it sounds like treating yourself as well as you treat other people. Right. And then it is knowing you're not alone. So she calls it common humanity. So the knowledge that to suffer is human. And in addition to that, the very specific thing you're going through, somebody else is going through it, too. And I can guarantee you, no matter how strange you think what you're going through is, if you do a Google search, you will find probably millions of other people going through the same thing. So that's common humanity. And I remember this maladaptive daydreaming that I referred to. This is elaborate fantasizing in your mind for hours. One of your chapters. Exactly. If anybody listening knows what I'm talking about and you think you're the only one who does it, Google it. There's millions of people doing it, and they're researching it and they have ways to overcome it now, too. So they're doing, like, mindfulness based stress reduction is one way to overcome it. So the last piece in this mindful self compassion is mindfulness, and it's especially related to your emotions. So it's just accepting whatever you're feeling in the moment without judgment. And that means that instead of giving yourself a pep talk or instead of trying to push away these feelings that you don't think are useful, not allowing yourself to be angry, whatever it is, you actually sink into those emotions that you're trying to avoid, and you give yourself comfort through them. Because a lot of times when we don't accept our emotions, it's because they weren't accepted when we were a child. And so we learn to deny them. And just like not having boundaries will prevent you from having the life you want, not acknowledging your emotions will really prevent you from knowing who you are. And emotions are more than an inconvenience. They are messengers. They tell you what's going on with you. Anger can be telling you what's wrong in your life that you need to change. [00:43:08] Speaker B: Yes. Don't fight it. Sometimes I have students who, when we talk about doing things for themselves, you mentioned self kindness. They correct me sometimes and say, well, I don't want to be seen as self centered. And I have to explain to them that's really more of self preservation is what I like to call it, rather than self centeredness, because they have been somehow trained or programmed that to do something for yourself is self centeredness. [00:43:42] Speaker C: Yeah, you're absolutely right. And you're right when you say self preservation, because quite literally, if we don't put ourselves first, or at least put ourselves very high on the list, then we are not going to stay healthy. Like, there are sicknesses and chronic illnesses that can develop when we deny ourselves and we abandon ourselves. [00:44:08] Speaker B: This is your first book, isn't it? [00:44:10] Speaker C: It is, yeah. [00:44:11] Speaker B: Even though you've written many articles, do you think there'll be another book? I know it came out in September. [00:44:19] Speaker C: Yeah, I hope there will be. And I wanted to take that opportunity to say that writing this book was also an overcoming of self sabotage. Because the reason why I only wrote articles and essays is because I didn't think I had it in me to do the long haul of writing a book. And that was part of the self sabotage. So being able to actually write a whole book, that long term project, was a big overcoming something for me. [00:44:50] Speaker B: How long did it take you to write? [00:44:52] Speaker C: I'd say about a year. [00:44:55] Speaker B: So a while it took you a long time. Well, I'm excited to recommend it to my students and my other clients. And let's take our final break. And then when we come back, can you talk about any resources you have for people other that the resource of the type of therapy is very interesting, Dr. Kristen Neff, that you just mentioned. But let's take another quick break, our last one. And then when we come back, let's talk about resources and how people can find you if they need to. You're listening to brain matters on 19.7 the Capstone Tuscaloosa. [00:45:45] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling and no relationship is created between the show hosts or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863 if you are not a UA student, please contact your respective county's Cris service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room. [00:46:24] Speaker B: Hey, you're back listening to brain matters on 90.7 the Capstone. I'm Dr. B. J. Gunther and we're talking tonight about setting boundaries and self sabotage. My guest is Laura Connell, and Laura is the author of it's not your fault, the subconscious reasons we self sabotage and how to stop. And it's not that easy, is it, Laura? [00:46:45] Speaker C: No, it's not. And you really need to acknowledge where it comes from. It often comes from the past, our childhood and what we went through it. [00:46:55] Speaker B: I think you can tell from experience. If you've been listening to the show from Laura's experience growing up, I would think it's a constant work in progress. It's like there are always going to be things that still creep up that you have to catch and tell yourself, now wait a minute, and hold yourself accountable, even. [00:47:18] Speaker C: Yeah, I would say that goes on probably your whole life. And the difference is that you become kinder and more compassionate to yourself. When you catch yourself doing these things, you become very curious about why you're doing them. So I like to say that you reframe the question, why did I do that? Whereas at the beginning you're very mean to yourself and accusatory, whereas when you're in your healing journey and you're rolling along and it's just self discovery, you're going to be curious and say, I wonder why I did that? And this will help you do it differently the next time. And there's no beating yourself up, it's just part of the journey. [00:47:56] Speaker B: Would you recommend that people who have experienced growing up in severely dysfunctional families seek counseling with a trauma informed counselor who has special training? [00:48:13] Speaker C: Yeah, I would say it's hard to know because choosing a counselor or a therapist is so individual. Right. [00:48:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:48:21] Speaker C: One thing I would say is that if you don't have a strong sense of self, you might even go to a therapist office and feel like you have to please them. Like you want to say what they want to hear. You want to make them feel successful. I know it might sound. [00:48:36] Speaker B: No, you wouldn't think that way. And it's almost like a feeling of you're going to get in trouble somehow. You're going to be talked down to or something if you don't do a certain thing. [00:48:50] Speaker C: And so that, again, is part of the self sabotage. So we have to be careful and know that when you go to a therapist, the interpersonal relationship is just as important as the credentials and all the things they can do for you. So make sure you feel comfortable, that you feel understood and held by this person. And if you don't, you just move to the next one. There's plenty more finding. Exactly. And they're not going to take offense. And even if they did, you need to take care of your own healing. Right? [00:49:22] Speaker B: That's right. [00:49:24] Speaker C: The people I work with have almost always been to therapy, and I think I've never had to really insist on it, but I think it's sort of a prerequisite for me that people have done therapy, and sometimes it's just they need that extra little push to get where they're going from someone who's been there. Some people didn't have a good experience with therapy, but most of the time it's not that it wasn't a good experience. It's just they want a different experience through coaching. [00:49:54] Speaker B: Right. I hear you. Do you have any resources for people listening besides your website, which is laurakconnell.com? [00:50:02] Speaker C: That's right. It's got a very big blog library there that I'm quite proud of being a writer by trade. Then there is, you mentioned the selfcompassion.org. That's where you'll find that modality that I talked about and that I love so much. Then I would recommend anything by Dr. Gabor. Mate. Mate. And he has several books. He's a medical doctor who made the link between our physical ailments, including chronic illness and autoimmune disease, and the way we suppress our anger. And he especially says women do this, and there's a societal component, because women are expected to be caretakers at the expense of themselves that this comes out in. Women have autoimmune. I don't know if it's 80% more than men or something like that, probably. And he says it's not because of their gender. It's because of the societal expectation that they abandon themselves in favor of other people. They suppress their rage around having to do that, and that's what causes the illness. And so he's got all his evidence to prove that, including all the people that he's worked with. So he's a fantastic. [00:51:16] Speaker B: He comes from the medical. [00:51:17] Speaker C: Exactly. [00:51:18] Speaker B: Wow, that's great. [00:51:20] Speaker C: Yeah. And then there's books like, the body keeps the score by Bessel Vanderkok. And that'll tell you why trauma is stored in your body. The logical brain can't talk you out of it. There is complex PTSD surviving to thriving by Pete Walker, and he's a social worker who has gone through tremendous childhood trauma. And complex PTSD is a term, basically, it means childhood trauma, but it's a term that refers to post traumatic stress disorder, but not from a single event, from a series of events that go on over years and years. So childhood trauma would be that. Yeah. It could also be something like a refugee camp. But in this case, we're talking about childhood trauma. So those are a few that would get someone started. I think. [00:52:13] Speaker B: Those are great. Those are great. I'm fascinated. I'm interested in Dr. Mate. That's fascinating to me. So I'm going to order that for myself and look for myself. Thank you. So gone. I say it every week, but this has really gone by so fast, and you've given so much information. Thank you for disclosing private information, personal information about yourself. I think it really does lend credibility to someone who does that, and it helps people who are hopefully listening and have been through this to reach out and maybe seek counseling and not be afraid. [00:52:51] Speaker C: Thank you, PJ. Thank you so much. I agree. It's gone by very quickly, and you've been an amazing host. I'm very grateful to be here. Thank you. [00:53:00] Speaker B: Thank you. Have a good evening in Tampa, Florida. Enjoy yourself, and thanks for listening. [00:53:08] Speaker C: Okay, bye bye bye. [00:53:10] Speaker B: Don't forget, our shows are recorded and podcasted to Apple, and also they're on audioboom.com and also voices ua.edu. And you can find that on the counseling center's website at counseling ua.edu. And I'd like to thank a few people who've made the show possible. Our executive director here at the counseling center, Dr. Greg Vanderwald, my producer, Catherine Howell, who's not here this week, but she'll be back next week, my colleagues at the counseling center, the WVUA staff who edit our show every week, and of course, my guest tonight, Laura K. Connell. And don't forget, next week we'll be on the air again, and this will be another interesting and fascinating topic that we've never done before. We've done lots of shows on substance abuse, but this one specifically is going to be when substance abuse crosses the line to addiction. So if you're interested in that, or if you just want to listen to a good talk show, check it out. Next week. We'll be here, same place, same time. Thanks again for listening to brain matters, and good night. [00:54:26] Speaker A: This show was not intended as a substitute for professional counseling. Further, the views, opinions and conclusions expressed by the show hosts or their guests are their own and not necessarily those of the University of Alabama, its officers or trustees. Any views, opinions or conclusions shared on the show do not create a relationship between the host or any guest and any listener, and such a relationship should never be inferred. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, please contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863 if you are not a UA student, please contact your respective county's crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance.