Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling and no relationship is created between the show host or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective counties crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
[00:00:40] Speaker B: It's six o' clock in time again for Brain Matters, the official radio show of the UA Counseling Center. We are broadcasting from the campus of the University of Alabama. Good evening. My name is Dr. B.J. guenther. I'm the host of the show along with my colleague and producer Katherine Howell. And in case you don't know, this show is about mental and physical health issues that affect college students and in particular UA students. So you can listen to us each Tuesday night at 6pm on 90.7 FM or you can listen on the website at WVUA UA.edu. you can also download any app that you like to listen to. I like the MyTuner radio app and you just type in WVUAFM 90.7 and you'll find our shows. Also, we changed our email address. Catherine will help me give it out periodically throughout the show, but if you have any if you have any ideas for topics for upcoming shows, please email those to me@brain mattersradiobuafm.com and of course I'll consider using your show topics. We've mostly got our show topics solidified for this semester, but we need help with some topics for spring semester. We only do shows in the fall and the spring, so we do about 12 or 13 shows each semester. So if you are listening and you've got any ideas that pertain to college mental health, nothing is off limits. Email those ideas to me@brain mattersradiovuafm.com and I'll try to incorporate those look tonight. I've been looking forward to this show forever because anybody who's been listening to me for a little while knows I love Halloween. It's my favorite holiday.
Why do We Love to Be Scared? From supernatural monsters to terrifying stories about our own society, horror films have long offered audiences more than a good scare and they can reflect the anxieties of their time, challenge cultural norms, and reveal what we fear most about ourselves and the world around us. Joining us tonight is Michelle Martinez on at Arizona State University.
She's in Arizona right now and an instructor. She's an instructor in film and media studies whose work explores the relationship between film culture and representation. And today we're exploring how horror films reflect societal fears and cultural anxieties and what the monsters on our screens can tell us about the world beyond them. Isn't that a long intro?
That's a good one, though. Hey, Michelle, thank you for joining us. This is exciting to me.
[00:03:13] Speaker C: Hi. I love talking about horror films, so I'm happy to be here.
[00:03:16] Speaker B: Me too. Thank you for having me. You're welcome. Tell the listeners a little more about yourself, your credentials, and why you're interested in this topic.
[00:03:27] Speaker C: Well, you know, that's a good question. Why am I interested in this topic?
My credentials. I. I've been teaching at Arizona State University for decades now, almost two decades, and I taught a variety of things. My research is really focused in representation of Latinos, specifically women and Mexican American women and indigenous women in television.
So I really kind of look at race and gender in TV in my.
My book or my. My research work, as well as Disney and Latinos and the history there. So I do a lot of work within that.
But I also have been fascinated with horror films, but genre in overall genre. I also taught sci and I have a big interest in fantasy stuff. But.
But horror to me was the most interesting because I watched a horror film way too young, and I think a lot of. And what I hear from a lot of my students is that they did as well and the impact that it has on you when you see a horror film too young. Now, of course, listen, this might sound cliche, but it also sounds classic. I was 11 when I was at a church group sleepover and the older girls put on the Exorcist.
[00:04:57] Speaker B: Oh, okay, we're gonna talk about that later. I've got some questions about the Exorcist.
[00:05:02] Speaker C: Okay, well, good, because I will love that movie now. But then I was so frightened that I slept with the lights on. And I was in my twenties and my. My ex husband, he said to me one day, you know, you could get possessed during the daytime too.
[00:05:21] Speaker B: Okay, okay, that's it. No, no, I just told somebody today, you don't see ghosts in the daytime.
You know, we were talking.
[00:05:30] Speaker C: So I stopped sleeping with a light on. But I also started to. This was also when I started kind of looking at horror film. Why it had that impact on me. And let me tell you what, from ages 11, I got to college, I was a good, good girl.
I made sure I did not do anything that would catch The Eye of Pazuzu or any other demon that was around. And, you know, I tell this story to my students. My students hear the story from me, but they love your.
Well, what was funny about it is I get so many messages and posts that say, that happened to me. That happened to me. My, my. Sometimes it's the Exorcist, but other times it's the Conjuring. Other times it's a different film. You know, it could be anything.
For a colleague of mine, it was a vampire film that my other colleague happened to be in.
But we all kind of have that moment when we first saw a horror film, maybe too young, and it scared the pants off of us. And that fear reverberated in a long time. But that goes to one reason why horror is such an important facet of culture and why it's important to us as people, is it functions in some way and greatly as a cautionary tale. Right. Like horror is a cautionary tale in a lot of ways. And of course, depending on what the story it is and what tale it's telling you and what the norms and the cultural norms and wars are of the place that cautionary tale is going to look and feel different, as are the monsters and all the other things that we label as horror.
[00:07:11] Speaker B: Why do you think human. And we're going to get into some of these films because I got to talk about. But why are human beings so fascinated by horror? I mean, what makes us willing to pay money to experience fear when we spend so much of our lives trying to avoid it?
[00:07:32] Speaker C: Yes, because it gives our bodies and our minds a visceral reaction. And there's something about going together in the dark room with all these other people and feeling that knowing, intellectually, knowing that we're safe, but because our little reptilian sides of our brains are just experiencing kind of a.
I don't even want to say a fight or flight, but more of a freeze response. Yeah, because you know you're safe, but your body still goes into freezing.
Everybody tenses up at those moments or everybody jumps at those moments, or.
[00:08:09] Speaker B: It's like a camaraderie, too.
[00:08:11] Speaker C: Yes, like a. Just like a roller coaster. It is.
[00:08:14] Speaker B: I was thinking that because you mentioned Disney. I'm going to Disney Monday, and I can't wait. And it's like that. It's like being on a ride together. You all experience it together. There's something about it. Yeah.
[00:08:25] Speaker C: There's a collective journey, a collective visceral experience. Experience why we pay money to go see it in the theater. Now, we can ask. We can, we can ask each other, well, why are we going to watch it in the dark? Or why do I read? Like, why. Why am I using my backlit Kendall to read Dracula for the 25th time? I read it in October and I just finished it and I started it again because it is one of the most beautiful, funny and scary books.
We often don't talk about the humor in it and we don't talk about the feminism in it. I mean, there's also some misogyny, but no one ever talks. I've yet to see an adaptation that. That does Dracula, right?
[00:09:04] Speaker B: That does Dracula, right. I love. I just bought. Well, last year I bought the. The limited edition with the velvet cover. I don't know. The. I mean, we've gone off on a tangent already, Michelle, I'm jealous. But I read it every year and I collect these different editions and I know that's probably very sick.
[00:09:24] Speaker C: I love it. I want to see your collection.
[00:09:26] Speaker B: I love it. I will take a picture and I'll send it to you. Okay. Sidebar. Is our attraction to her primarily about entertainment or is there a deeper psychological purpose?
[00:09:40] Speaker C: Well, a lot of people like to talk about catharsis, right? And some scholars and philosophers say it does give us a sense of catharsis because we are.
We know we're safe and we're able to go on this journey, and whatever we're feeling is also going to go on this journey with us.
So. And then philosopher Noel Carroll, he talked. He separates out, like, art horror, like the horror film or book, right. Or poem or picture or whatever. And then natural horror, the real ugly, lived experiences that human beings have done and witnessed and lived through and perpetrated real. So, yes, and he calls it natural versus. And that's problematic. And other scholars have poked holes in it and everything but this. But, but it kind of is a foundational and underlying separation between, like, lived real horrors, natural horrors, or things that are happening in the world, and then this fantasy, horror fiction of fiction. And by engaging in the fiction, it almost helps us psychologically process and handle what's going on in the. In the outside world.
And I actually think there's a new film that there's a big controversy about. People hate and love the film Digger that just came out by.
[00:11:11] Speaker B: I just talked to a student this morning about that, and I was shocked. I think that she liked it.
[00:11:16] Speaker C: I loved it. And I think because it touches on this very concept of the need for story in life. Like, we need stories.
We had story before we had written language, like everybody's making big fuss about the Odyssey these days because of Nolan's film.
But Homer was just the first person to write it down, or the first one we know of, the first written record we've held onto. Right. Someone else may have written it down first, we don't know, but we know that these are collections of stories that existed long before his version was written down. So also a lot of people there was to be literate was a privilege of few. And so the oral tradition far, far predates any written language. Right. So oral tradition and the story, and humans need it. And whether you read it or you listen to it, MRIs and studies have shown it still highlights the same areas in the brain. Whether you hear a story or you read a story, whether you're listening to audible or you have well worn paperback in your hands, which I'm listening to audible.
[00:12:29] Speaker B: Dracula, you know the one, you know the edition I'm talking about with the actors.
[00:12:35] Speaker C: I just, I listened to that and then I. Okay, I like it fine. I just told a influencer friend of mine, you know what? It was okay, I still. Because I'm still upset that I don't. It doesn't have. There's still not a version that does Stoker's version justice. And even that one didn't.
I liked it. I enjoyed it.
[00:12:57] Speaker B: Yeah, it's okay. I've heard it before, you know, I've
[00:13:00] Speaker C: heard it before, but, but then I, I, when I want to hear it, I go Back to the 2012 one with Alan Cumming and Tim Curry.
But that one's the best to me, that one, because it, what is it? It's just them reading it, that's why.
And I. Because I don't know, I. No one has yet to, to do it right for me. You know, I don't know Mina, I'm
[00:13:24] Speaker B: very picky about that.
[00:13:25] Speaker C: She wants to, she wants to be an investigative journalist. She tells us that in her, in her diary. She wants to be an investigative journalist. She's got her little portable typewriter. She's got some training times memorized. She is out there wanting to be the new Sherlock Holmes. She is willing to put her life on the line to get this solved right.
And I don't. And no one, even my favorite visual representations have not yet done her justice. So maybe, maybe I just have to make my own film.
[00:13:56] Speaker B: Something to look forward to. Maybe you should.
[00:13:58] Speaker C: Anyway, that's a tangent before we.
[00:14:00] Speaker B: Oh, we're going to go on some tangents. We're not going to get to any of these questions that I prepared. I tell you that right now. Okay, before we go to a break, make it short. But here's my question.
What's the scariest horror film you've ever seen?
[00:14:17] Speaker C: Okay, you mean fictional films and not the news?
[00:14:21] Speaker B: Yeah, fictional, man.
[00:14:24] Speaker C: I was gonna. It always has been the Exorcist. It's always gonna be that, I think. No, but it's not anymore because I. I love it. And we're gonna talk about that, I guess, but we are. Oh, I've got several more to talk about.
You know, my. I keep thinking hereditary, but for the same reasons that the Exorcist, I. I just repackages those kinds of demon possession, possession films. Yeah, yeah.
[00:14:50] Speaker B: Yes, those.
[00:14:51] Speaker C: Rosemary's Baby is one that sticks up there because.
And we got to talk about that one too before.
[00:14:58] Speaker B: I gotta write that down because I don't have that. I don't have that on my list. I mean, I've seen it, but I didn't have that on my list to talk about, so. Okay, let's take a break. When we come back, let's talk about Rosemary's Baby. How about that?
[00:15:08] Speaker C: Yeah. We'll be right back.
[00:15:09] Speaker B: You're listening to 90, the Capstone. This is Brain Matters,
[00:15:22] Speaker C: Wvuafm Tuscaloosa.
[00:15:25] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling and no relationship is created between the show hosts or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counsel Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective counties crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
[00:16:03] Speaker B: Hey, you're back listening to brain matters on 90.7, the capstone. Tonight we are talking about one of my favorite topics, horror films and Halloween. And if you don't like that, just turn us off. I don't know what else to say because we're gonna really get into it. We're basically what I named the show is horror films that reflect societal fears and cultural anxieties. And my guest is Michelle Martinez and she's at Arizona State University. And I believe I've. I've been to Arizona State University. Is that in Phoenix or Glendale?
[00:16:34] Speaker C: It's in Tempe. It's right outside of.
[00:16:36] Speaker B: Yes, I've been there.
[00:16:37] Speaker C: Phoenix. Yeah, I've been there.
[00:16:39] Speaker B: Yes, it's close because we like to go. We like when we're going places, we like to visit universities. Because my husband and I both work here at the University of Alabama. Okay. So when we went to the break, I asked Michelle what her scariest horror film is. Was still is the Exorcist. You mentioned Rosemary's Baby. My scariest horror film is a film called Communion.
Have you ever seen it?
[00:17:04] Speaker C: Yes.
Yeah.
[00:17:06] Speaker B: Yeah, he's creepy, but, yeah, I really
[00:17:10] Speaker C: loved him in in the Dead Zone when. The first time they did the Dead Zone, which is a Stephen King book.
Stephen King was. So while the Exorcist was my introduction to horror and it freaked me out, and I didn't want anything to do with horror. I didn't watch horror.
A good Christian girl during that period of time.
No, it was it for me. So I went to visit my dad in California, and his wife at the time had a bunch of Stephen King books. And this was maybe two years after I watched the Exorcist. I arrived at their house with a Sweet Valley High book and I left with my stepmother's. I stole her collection of Stephen King books and I went home. I read the Shining and the Dead Zone when I was there. And you were hooked.
And I was hooked. I was hooked. Because when you're reading the book, and maybe this is true, why I love Dracula so much, when you're reading the book, you have control over the scare. You're making the sounds and the music. You're painting the picture with your own head and you're not succumbing to, like, Kubrick's interesting film angles or musical cues or anyone. Any other director's ideas of how that scare should play out. Right. So for me, the book has always been the. That was my entry into being able to appreciate it, was reading it. And then, you know. And then I read stuff that's considered horror that I didn't know was horror. Things like the Yellow wallpaper that was required reading in high school.
You know what? Some of the other. I mean, Frankenstein, I mean, obviously, that one's a classic horror.
[00:18:45] Speaker B: I've got that on my list to talk about. And one of my questions, I was going to ask you about Frankenstein, which was. I think it was released in 1931. The original.
[00:18:55] Speaker C: The movie.
[00:18:56] Speaker B: The film. And I was gonna ask you, do you think it would be as scary to people now as it was back then? Does that make sense?
[00:19:07] Speaker C: Yes.
So I don't think people find it very scary. A friend of mine who's. Who's an influencer his like 5 year old son loves that movie 1931. Of course he's not showing him a recent one, he's showing him one there now. 31 is just a little bit.
But they did a lot of editing of the film in order to kind of, you know, keep it there. But we, when you talk about earlier films between the 30s and the 60s, I would say I like.
So Hitchcock is in there, Val Lewton and RKO is in there. But the Production Code, the Hays Code was enforced there. So they had a very strict things that they could show and not show. Right. And then the first horror film that comes out when the Hays code is basically lifted is Night of the Living Dead, the Romero film that's so, so famous. 1968 and that's that because that sets the tone for the zombie films that would live on after that because we actually got to see them eating flat. You know, like there's ripping people to shreds. Yes. And even, even though it's still to our night, our, our 2026 eyeballs still pretty tame.
Right. So it's gotten progressively that the industry or what we see or what we're desensitized to and the rating system obviously comes into play.
But we are, we are consider it just as shifts and change so much that not only does has it gone like super. There's the niche of horror films that are super violent, but there's also the niche of horror films that are super wholesome and that are like kid friendly and family friendly friendly and Halloween.
And while that was my next thing is ever since the 30s since like Laurel and Hardy meet Frankenstein. Laurel and Hardy and the. And the Werewolf, you know, so comedy has always kind of woven in there. And then you look at phenomenon like Shaun of the Dead and Hot Fuzz, the Edgar Wright stuff that was really funny and intertextual because it referenced so many other horror films. But now when I talk about comedy and horror, you can't not talk about Widow's Bay. I hope you've seen that.
[00:21:24] Speaker B: I've been. I've started watching it. I've started watching it.
[00:21:28] Speaker C: Phenomenal.
Hilarious.
[00:21:31] Speaker B: What's his name, the lead actor? What's his name?
[00:21:33] Speaker C: Matthew Reese.
[00:21:34] Speaker B: Yes. I love him in everything he's in.
Yeah.
[00:21:37] Speaker C: And the way humor works, the way humor works in that series is, is masterful because I think it was. There's a scholar that I have my students read and unfortunately I can't think of his name right now, but I will hopefully by the end of the time or in the middle of the Night.
He talks about how the pacing is, that it's, it's harder to. Sometimes comedy is harder than horror, but to balance the two has a sense of like that you have, you amp up the fear and then you use comedy as a valve to release and that it, it takes a very masterful hand in order to do it without it, you know, looking ridiculous. But I think Widow's Bay has that down too.
[00:22:26] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Some people would not get it.
Some people do not get it. They don't get it.
[00:22:32] Speaker C: Yeah.
And you know, and you said Rocky Horror Picture show and let me just tell you, I, I was 16 when I saw that and I loved it so much. And I've gone to Shadow Cast and I have a T shirt that I wore. I cried my eyes out when I heard the news about. Tim Curry is always going to be my. One of my horror favorites.
[00:22:53] Speaker B: Yeah, me too.
[00:22:54] Speaker C: And you know, and I read his. I, Well, I listened in his. Because I love listening to memoirs and the voice of the person who wrote them because it is their own story they're telling. And I listened to his memoir at the beginning of the year and it was.
[00:23:06] Speaker B: That's a good idea.
I mean, yes, let's do this. Let's talk about specific films. We've already talked about a few. You mentioned Rosemary's Baby.
[00:23:15] Speaker C: Yes, about that.
[00:23:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:23:17] Speaker C: So in her, there's a book that just came out called Scream with me. And Eleanor Johnson makes this case. And I talk about something similar with it and other films of the era as well. We talk about things like Rosemary's Baby, the Exorcist, Carrie even. These are films that happen, that were happening right around the women's lib movement. Right.
So the other one is Stepford Wives, which I just listened to recently.
So all of these films are happening right around the time. So even in Stepford First Wives, they mentioned Betty Friedan. Well, we were just reading that. And now we're supposed to be what we would call today, like a trad wife.
[00:23:59] Speaker B: But.
[00:24:00] Speaker C: But they were looking at this other thing. But all of these things are happening when women are trying to get autonomy, reproductive rights, financial rights, divorce, even no fault divorce.
It was very difficult in the late 60s and early 70s to even divorce your husband if he was beating and raping you. They didn't consider marital rape rape until like, I think it was like even after this period of time, not until 80s or 90s in some places, that they recognized marital rape as a form of rape.
So when you talk about women and their rights and you have something like Rosemary's Baby. And Eleanor Johnson brings up this great point when she documents Rosemary's Baby and when it comes out until when abortion rights and some of these other rights about being able to divorce and women couldn't even have their own credit cards until 1974. Okay, so Rosemary's Baby. And.
And then of course, Roe V wave is in 72. Rosemary's Baby, the Exorcist. These films are right around the time I really feel like Carrie kind of deals with a feminine rage and as a cautionary tale about not allowing women to come into their powers.
Whereas Rosemary's Baby, when we're. When, when it starts. And Johnson points this out, like when it starts, it's kind of anti feminist because here it has Mia Farrow's character. She's like, her husband is saying we need to do this. Or her husband orchestrates a rape about her from Satan. Right, Satan. He allows Satan to rape his wife. And then he also allows the neighbors to kind of control her. And she. The doctor is controlling. And if you look at old gothic tails, the doctor is always really involved in controlling. And nowadays we see our doctor for like five minutes. But. And yeah. Or we don't see the doctor at all.
And so having like she, she loses her autonomy and she, her husband is even gaslighting her about being raped. And he even makes a joke that it. That she doesn't remember it or he was doing this fantasy. Okay. So when we the audience find out that she's pregnant with the spawn of Satan.
[00:26:18] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:18] Speaker C: Suddenly if you're. If you're somebody who normally doesn't believe in abortion, you want. You all of a sudden you. Yeah. You want her to get an abortion.
[00:26:27] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:26:27] Speaker C: And.
And another film that does that is later is about later is the Fly, when Geena Davis's character is pregnant with this. With Jeff Goldblum Fly Baby.
[00:26:38] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:26:39] Speaker C: You as the audience want. Are wanting her to have an abortion.
Your feelings about abortion happen to be. But shortly after this film, all certain laws start to shift for. For women. Right. And so we can also talk about the fact that Rosemary Baby was directed by a problematic predator. Sexual predator in Roman.
[00:27:03] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:27:04] Speaker C: So often and I. A lot of scholars insist that not all filmmakers go into making a film with a certain. Or even any artist go into making art necessarily with an intention. Right. Like, sure, they might have one intention, but something else might come up out of the film. And while he might not have gone into it with a pro. Women's rights. And this is when the film Kind of becomes. In some ways, you know, it becomes pro abortion. It starts out pro, like, trad wife, do whatever your husband wants. And then it shifts into like, you don't want this for her, right? Even her friends. Even her friends are like, I don't think you can carry this to term. It's making you ill. And the only kind of abortions you could legally have at the time were if it was going to threaten the women's life. And even that didn't guarantee you to get one.
[00:28:03] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:28:04] Speaker C: However, at the time, and a lot of. So this film kind of helps that conversation, which allows for more laws to happen. Now what. What's interesting is we can talk about Roe v. Wade being overturned and a new film like Obsession coming out.
When Obsession is about a nice guy, right? He's. He's supposed to be a nice guy. He's the best friend. And then he makes this wish that she's in love with him more than anyone else. And it goes wildly wrong. And every time he has an opportunity to fix it, he chooses not to fix it. And then when he tries to fix it, it's too late. But at the end, while Barker may not have set out to make a pro abortion film, what it's really saying is that it's reflecting a time when women's bodies and bodily autonomy is being threatened.
Because that's what happens to Nikki in Obsession. So that's how I'm kind of connecting Obsession to Rosemary's Baby is the loss of a bodily autonomy. One at the beginning of abortion,
[00:29:12] Speaker A: Roe
[00:29:12] Speaker C: v. Raid, and one at the end.
[00:29:14] Speaker B: This is fascinating. This is fascinating. We're gonna have to take another break, but when we come back, I want to kind of talk about. There's one film that I never thought of as a horror film, and there's some societal issues with it, too, and I want to mention that. So when we come back, I'm going to ask you about that and see what you think you're listening to. Brain matters on 19.7 FM will be right back.
[00:29:47] Speaker C: Wvuafm, Tuscaloosa.
[00:29:49] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling and no relationship is created between the show host or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective counties crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
[00:30:27] Speaker B: Hey, you're listening to brain matters on 90.7. The capstone. This is BJ Gunther. We're talking tonight basically about horror films and how they are influenced or reflected by cultural anxieties and societal issues. And I'm talking to Michelle Martinez, who is. What. What are the classes you teach at Arizona State Horror Films?
There's a waiting list.
[00:30:54] Speaker C: Well, we have opened more sections to it. Yeah, it is a very popular class and it's a lot of fun. And so we. But also I teach film and TV history and race and gender and American cinema and media.
So, yeah, my favorite thing, specific movie
[00:31:17] Speaker B: that I am thinking of, that I did not think of as a horror film until I was research researching for this show, but it most definitely is a horror film is 1975's Jaws.
[00:31:28] Speaker C: Oh.
Oh, I love that film. I love it.
[00:31:32] Speaker B: And my question is, how does a seemingly straightforward monster shark, a monster movie, tap into fears of the unknown, vulnerability, and institutions putting economic interest instead of public safety? Remember?
No, it was Memorial Day.
[00:31:53] Speaker C: Okay.
You know, it's funny. Was it Fourth of July?
[00:31:57] Speaker B: I don't remember. I thought it was Memorial Day, the opening of summer.
[00:32:00] Speaker C: Oh, the opening, yes.
[00:32:01] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:32:01] Speaker C: I think you're right.
[00:32:02] Speaker B: You know, and the mayor was really.
[00:32:03] Speaker C: All I could see is the. The bunting. And that would be either of those holidays, wouldn't it? Yeah, I.
[00:32:12] Speaker B: Crazy.
[00:32:13] Speaker C: That movie is so, like, visually awesome.
[00:32:19] Speaker B: So that movie was my Exorcist.
[00:32:21] Speaker C: So Jossum.
[00:32:23] Speaker B: Yeah. So. Oh, really?
That movie was my Exorcist. I was. I don't know how old I was, but we were at the beach and I went to see the film with my parents and it scared the bee Jesus out of me. I mean, it was just because we were at the beach.
[00:32:40] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:32:41] Speaker B: Who would go into the water after that?
[00:32:43] Speaker C: Now, this is what I love about that movie. And I. I'll say my little thing about it. Before I watched the movie, I didn't watch them. I think I watched the movie on VHS in the 80s, but I had already. My dad was a set builder for Universal Studios in the 80s, and so he worked on some cool movies, including Scarface and the show Murder She Wrote and Festival Whorehouse in Texas. And he worked on a lot of really cool movies, but he got us.
When Universal Studios first opened to the public, like, to come, like, now it's a whole theme park. But back then it just was like a collection of cool effects.
Yeah. And I think it's still there, but There was the Jaws ride, and you got on it and the bridge broke apart and the mechanical shark came up, and it was the coolest thing. So when I went to see it, I already knew that shark was mechanical. So when I saw it on VHS and I was like, that's when I. That was the first film that I looked at and could actually see.
And maybe. Maybe that's the film that kind of led me to what I do, because I look at that film and try to figure out how it was made. You know, like, I recognize that shot of Roy Scheider, that Hitchcock shot where they zoom out and they pull in and zoom out at the same time.
[00:33:57] Speaker B: Yes, yes.
[00:33:58] Speaker C: When he. And it signifies his realization that shark is right out.
[00:34:04] Speaker B: We're gonna need a bigger boat.
[00:34:06] Speaker C: Yeah, well, before that. He doesn't even know that before he goes on the boat when he realizes that the shark stories are right and like the background and he's sitting on the beach trying to enjoy.
[00:34:15] Speaker B: On the beach. I know exactly what it's like room.
[00:34:18] Speaker C: And you see that Hitchcock effect happen. And so for me, that movie was. That was like. Okay. And then the pacing of it and. But yes, there is body horror involved in that. Right? There's. Because right when we see it, she's out there. That. The opening scene, it's. But it also is a horror film. If you are going to talk about how horror films often kind of sacrifice young, sexually active women.
And there she's, like, calling to her lover. They've separated out from the group so that they could go skinny dipping together and maybe have sex. And then she gets eaten by a shark.
So in some ways, it's a slight. It could be like a slasher film in that way, because it's trying to Friday the 13th young women and then. But then it becomes a revenge story. Right. The shark is, you know, for some reason, seeking revenge against humans. But that taps into a fear we already have. Everyone has a healthy fear of the sea. We know as human beings in our evolution that the sea can give us food or it could give us death. It can be a beautiful place to relax and play, or in a hurricane, it can rip you to shreds. You know, so the. The. I feel the same way about the sky in Oklahoma. It's so beautiful sometimes, but it can kill you. And the ocean.
Yeah.
[00:35:39] Speaker B: With the tornadoes. Okay. This movie that I'm gonna mention, this movie gave me claustrophobia.
It's a quiet place.
A quiet place. 2018, because they couldn't talk. If you haven't seen the movie. You need to see it because it is a good movie.
[00:35:59] Speaker C: Yes. And also, I am also claustrophobic. Like, I.
[00:36:05] Speaker B: For real.
[00:36:06] Speaker C: So, yeah, like, I had to go to the special MRI for something, you know, because I can't.
I had to drive 45 minutes just so that they wouldn't lock me in.
[00:36:17] Speaker B: You know, I crawled out backwards. Michelle, that's another sidebar. Yeah, no, I did. It was hard.
[00:36:23] Speaker C: A lot more conversations we need to have.
[00:36:26] Speaker B: But with a quiet place. Why might stories about protecting children and keeping a family alive in a dangerous world resonate during periods of uncertainty?
[00:36:37] Speaker C: Yeah, because we all want to keep our kids safe. And one of the scholars, the scholar that I talked about with the comedy thing said this too. It's Rick Warland. Thanks. It did come up.
Okay, so he talks about that.
One of our biggest fears, and this is reflected in a lot of films, one of our biggest fears is to be killed or violated in our own home.
[00:36:59] Speaker B: Homes. Yeah.
[00:37:00] Speaker C: Right. Because our home is supposed to be safe. And then. And then when you think of Halloween, right. Jamie Lee Curtis, one of my favorite. One of my favorite horror films, the suburbs is supposed to be a safe.
A safe place. The suburbs are supposed to be safe. But a monster comes out as born out of the suburbs for that. And then we see it in, like, the Nightmare on Elm street stuff. Right. In your bed. As a teenager and as a parent. As a parent, my favorite time of the night when my kids were little is when they were both in bed and I would stand in the hallway in between their two rooms and I peek at them both and shut their doors and make sure they're covered up and make sure they're not reading or whatever it is, make sure they're asleep. But for me, that was when I could finally relax, when my kids were a bed asleep and safe, particularly once they became teenagers.
You know, they're in bed, they're home, they're safe. And then Nightmare on Elm Street, I think that would probably would have been scarier to parents than it was to me as a teenager when I watched it. It. But of course, I was really frightened, too, because, you know, nightmares, Nightmares suck. And it's preying on something that humans already have. Right? Just like Jaws, we already have a healthy fear of the sea. We already don't like nightmares. And so something like that, really, I
[00:38:14] Speaker B: think the movies, and maybe you'll agree with this, I think the movies that could be real, like Jaws, like the Exorcist, like Amityville, Horror, you know, Amityville Horror was the one for me. I mean, I, I, I think I have watched that only once, and I will not watch it again.
But it's those movies that are either based on a true story and I'm putting parentheses, you know, I'm doing.
[00:38:40] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:38:42] Speaker B: Quotations.
[00:38:43] Speaker C: True, true.
[00:38:45] Speaker B: Those are the ones that really bother me the most. It. Nightmare on Elm Street. Yeah, it's scary, but, you know, I'm like, it's not real. I mean, I know that.
But the other ones that I mentioned, those are hard to watch.
[00:39:00] Speaker C: Yeah, the, the possession films are hard. They're very hard for people. I think, to me, those are the scariest one. I mean, I mentioned heredity. Any of the. And my students also, they'll say that one. Or they'll say conjuring.
They're a little too young to know Amityville Horror. But every time I see Flies on Glass, I think, oh, my gosh.
[00:39:18] Speaker B: That theme. Yes.
[00:39:20] Speaker C: But also the Omen to me was very scary because it could be a child. It could be a child that you would ever know.
[00:39:26] Speaker B: Let me sidebar. I watched my husband and I watched that movie the night before we got married. Are we sickos? We are sickos. Our anniversary is October 28th. We're sickos.
[00:39:37] Speaker C: I love it. I love it.
[00:39:38] Speaker B: But it scared me to death because you're right. Little children being possessed.
[00:39:44] Speaker C: Yes. Well, that brings us back to the Exorcist. Right, Man. So Eleanor Johnson's book, Scream with me, she really talks about how in some ways, again, she goes. She puts it on the timeline for women's rights, how even being abused, you still couldn't just get a divorce quickly from your husband, you know, and how the monster that is in her home possessing her daughter, base and, and abusing her because Chris, the mom, she's even getting abused. Right. She's. When she goes and talks to the priest, she has all the markers of an abused woman. The big glasses, the. The scarf over her.
Over her head to hide the bruises that she got from being beat up by Pazuzu. The long sleeves like that. Those are long known signs and signals of an abused woman. And then.
And then also the cop who's trying to help but cannot not.
He's. He's friendly, he comes in, he talks. He knows there's something suspicious. But what can he do against this demon? And often that has happened, right. In, like, situations with domestic abuse where even the cops can't help or somehow are. Don't help for whatever reason or go
[00:40:59] Speaker B: to a certain limit.
[00:41:02] Speaker C: Yes. And something she Talks about in her article about the Exorcist is how at the beginning we. It. You see, it's setting her up like she's an actress and she has money and she, even though she's a career woman and she's still very close to her daughter and makes time for her daughter, very hands on with her daughter. And when signs are starting to show, you know, like her urinating on the floor in the middle of the party, she leaves her own party and gives her daughter a bath.
Or at the beginning of the film or at the beginning of their section when Reagan takes a cookie, the mom like playfully chases her into the living room and they roll around on the floor and have a little tickle party. They're very close.
But we also find out. So I find it interesting. What Eleanor Johnson's article doesn't do is talk about the other formation of men in the story. Like we have the demonic possess the, the demon who's possessing Reagan who's kind of that, that, that she, he like that stand in for an abuse, abusive husband, father.
[00:42:14] Speaker B: A father figure. Yeah.
[00:42:15] Speaker C: So but you then you have the priest who comes in to help and ultimately sacrifices himself and to help. Right.
Karus priest Carus. So then, then you have.
But who. There's another man. So you have the man who's, you have the, the demon male who is abusive and possessive. You have the sacrificial male father who is a father. Right. You call him father because he's a priest. Now there's one more missing who's missing the actual father, but he's not missing because he's on a phone call, a phone scream, a phone argument with Chris and he is absent. So you have yet this third male kind of figure involved. And so it's like, well, where's the dad in all of this? He's chosen. He's out with his new younger woman.
So. But he doesn't suffer any consequences to all the things that's happening. He doesn't. He's not the one who sacrifices himself out the window to free Reagan of this demon. And nor is he there to help pick up the pieces in the aftermath. Once Reagan is. Once Reagan and Chris are free of the demon, they are now survivors of this. Of violence and abuse.
Sexual abuse.
[00:43:37] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:43:37] Speaker C: Yes. And so now go ahead.
[00:43:40] Speaker B: I'm sorry I was.
[00:43:43] Speaker C: So that new, new journey begins with them. And I don't care about the sequels as much as I like.
[00:43:48] Speaker B: Oh no.
[00:43:49] Speaker C: As I really care about that. I haven't seen any of them.
[00:43:51] Speaker B: Yeah, I've never seen those. Do you show these films? How many films do you show in your class? Do they change every, like, semester? Do the students have any say so in suggestions of what they want to watch? How do you determine that?
[00:44:07] Speaker C: That's funny. I've had students enroll in my class and then tell me that they, for religious reasons or whatever reasons, that they can't watch any of the films. And I'm like, honey, you are in the wrong class.
[00:44:17] Speaker B: You knew, you knew what you were getting into.
[00:44:20] Speaker C: There are other classes that would be more suited for somebody like that. This class, there's a, like, I don't even know if we still have it. But when I first built the class like nine years ago now, I said there was like a warning on there. You know, we're going through these films. Yeah. And it was like.
And no, I'm not going to switch out films for you.
[00:44:44] Speaker B: No matter what.
[00:44:45] Speaker C: You can choose to not watch it. Yeah, but I don't know what that's going to do to your grade if you, you know, now what? I, I can't. I. There's a lot of films now. Some of them are optional. Sometimes it's just clips, you know, because I realize I can't make them spend 20 hours a week watching films. Although I would love to do it.
[00:45:06] Speaker B: I would too.
[00:45:06] Speaker C: Yes, I would. Sign me up for that class. But I pick a few. I pick the films that best res. Pick the topic. And while I don't change them every year, some I do change them periodically. And I'm about to do another shift now, like in the next two year or two, because I feel like there's been new research that has come out and there's been new films that have come out. And also films have been winning a cat, like the Exorcist and the Shining and that era when auteurs were taking on horror content.
And then for the longest time, you know, people dismiss horror as like, like B movies and, and, or low budget or just genre, like not important. But horror has always been important and so important that auteurs have taken it on. But that's happening again. Like we're in this new renaissance because we talked about Frankenstein and Guillermo del Toro did Frankenstein. And while I find his version to be closest to the book, just like in Dracula, I still have not found Frankenstein. Not even that one. That does justice for Justine. Just before Justine, I'm gonna have to
[00:46:20] Speaker B: write my hanging in the Louvre. Okay, let me ask you if you've. I know you've seen this film. I Know you have, but a lot of people have not. It's an Iranian film and it's terrifying, but it never really shows a whole lot. It's not very, very violent.
A girl walks home alone at night.
[00:46:39] Speaker C: I have not seen it. I'm gonna write. I've heard of it. I know. I'm so sad.
Or have it on the list. The.
[00:46:47] Speaker B: The visualization. You're a film person. The visualization, the way it is filmed is beautiful to me.
It is about a female vampire.
I'll just give you that. The music, the. The music, the soundtrack is wonderful.
So it. I just loved it. I just. I still love it. I own it. I bought it, I love it. I don't stream it, but I'm old Tommy, so I like doing the. That.
Have you.
[00:47:12] Speaker C: What about. How about Let the Right One In?
[00:47:15] Speaker B: Oh, Saw it last two weeks ago, watched it two. The Swedish version. Not the American version.
[00:47:21] Speaker C: No, no, the Swedish version. This. Yes, the Swedish. Definitely terrifying and. And beautiful and heartbreaking.
[00:47:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
Oh, I love it. Okay, look, we've got an email question. I said we'd go do that, and I'm gonna read it off to you and Catherine. We're not even going to take a break because we've got too much about. We've only got six minutes left. So this is it. That's it. We finish up and I've got, like, three questions that are emails. Let's see.
Do horror films serve as an escape from reality?
[00:47:53] Speaker C: Yes, most definitely.
[00:47:54] Speaker B: We kind of talked about that already. Do horror films.
[00:47:57] Speaker C: But so do musicals, right? Yeah, musicals. And so does anime and animation.
[00:48:02] Speaker B: No, do horror film. See, we could do a whole nother show on anime horror.
[00:48:08] Speaker C: Oh, my God, yes.
[00:48:09] Speaker B: You know, do horror films reflect our fear of the future and the unknown?
[00:48:15] Speaker C: Yes, it really does. I mean, you can.
Like, we can. We can point to things like Godzilla, for instance, because it's also. It's reflecting the horrors of the bombings in Japan, but it also is kind of reflecting the future of what the long term could mean. And then you. So. But also films like Train to Busan. That's one of my favorite zombie films.
[00:48:41] Speaker B: I've never seen it.
[00:48:43] Speaker C: Oh, write that one down. Oh, my God. Can't believe he's on a thing.
[00:48:46] Speaker B: You got me so good.
[00:48:48] Speaker C: And it has some humor moments in it, but it's definitely a horror film. And it's definitely a film that makes you think about, like, what pollute, like, corporate pollution can cause. Right? It makes you think about that.
What. What is technology and corporate pollution actually doing? To us.
[00:49:10] Speaker B: Okay, here's another question. This is from somebody else and I think I know the answer to this. Do you think watching these films can increase someone's overall anxiety once the film is over?
Has that.
[00:49:24] Speaker C: That's funny that you, that's funny that you said anxiety because I thought you were going to say empathy.
I think what it does is it helps. We, it triggers our empathy and sense of mercy as a human and maybe anxieties too. Maybe, maybe the catharsis comes because I know I'm anxious, I'm an anxious person and I find ways to manage that. But also I think that's why horror films work for me because it gives me some release. You are my anxieties. But it also, it puts me in touch with my human side and my empathetic side. And you know, you want these people to survive it. You're cheering the on, except for. Unless they're villains and then you cheer their demise, you know, but, but in some ways it triggers our sense of empathy and mercy, you know, for other people. And so I think, and you know, I actually, I can't remember where the article was, but I was reading an article about how people who engage in horror films, but reading and film and art in general, but they were talking, you know, and they pointed to horror films that we are more, they're more empathetic people because you're hearing these stories and you're walking in other people's shoes, right? You get sucked into their world, whether it's the screen or the page.
And that's, you know, and I think that's important. The other thing about horror films, I was working on one recently. A friend of mine is doing what I consider a whole, wholesome horror film.
It's really kind of about grief.
[00:50:56] Speaker B: Little house in the party, wink wink.
[00:51:00] Speaker C: It's a wholesome horror film. And it, but what we were talking about with it and making films is it's where right now people ask me all the time the state of Hollywood. Right? The state of Hollywood and the shifting and the, and all the merging and the moving out, the moving around the world and moving out of LA and yeah, yeah, the state of the industry.
It. And why, why is all these big budget films are just sequels and reboots and things and people and, and I know for the longest time people dismiss horror as unimportant, but not only is it a commentary on our social emotional angst and, and, and anxieties, contemporary anxieties, it also is the one place where you consistently have original, original content yeah, Original independent filmmaking is going on in the horror world and I have so many students, I have an amazing student and I'm going to just say it right now. Her name is Kristen Simetto. Watch out for her. She's got a film coming up or film that's in pre production called Comfort Food and her films also, and a short film called Vermin and her films really kind of in explore the inner world of somebody and. And you know, you can ask like sometimes we're our own monster. Right. And there's a lot of films that kind of reflect that and, and in some ways her films are these like quiet studies of, of the self and. And you know, maybe that, that's how I would describe like both, both of her films are kind of concerned with that. Whereas my friend whose film I was working on, his look for this film, Christopher Bradley, doesn't that I can't say the title because sometimes they change at the stage in the game.
His meditations are on grief and relationships, but also about fascism and art fighting and so the importance of art. These are things that come up in original independent horror storytelling.
So I think it's the one place where you can consistently find original artistry going on. And oftentimes they're doing it. They're self funding.
It's low, but sometimes it's often fairly low budget for a film.
[00:53:19] Speaker B: Budget. Yeah.
[00:53:20] Speaker C: Yeah. You rarely see horror films having the kind of budget a Marvel film will have. No. You know, it almost doesn't happen.
[00:53:29] Speaker B: And we didn't.
[00:53:29] Speaker C: I think that Jordan Peele's got.
[00:53:31] Speaker B: Oh, I was just gonna sell and Ryan Coogler. We didn't even get to talk about Jordan Peele. He's a.
[00:53:36] Speaker C: You know, you had a question. One of your questions was what did we see that was normal. That has been. That becomes the monster in film. And I would say racism. Racism in this country was normal during Jim Crow. But then you look at get out and you really see the ramifications of racism. You look at sinners and you see the ramifications of sinners. And Candyman, that's another one that my favorite talk about before we go.
[00:54:00] Speaker B: My favorite is us.
[00:54:02] Speaker C: Us? Yes, us. It is the creepiest movie and one of the creepiest things about it is something that I lived through as a teenager, which was Hands Across America.
[00:54:12] Speaker B: Oh.
[00:54:13] Speaker C: But it also taps into some of these conspiracy theories of like doppelgangers. Doppelgangers.
[00:54:18] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:54:19] Speaker C: Yeah. So I, I think he's brilliant. And Nope. Is one of my all time favorite films.
[00:54:26] Speaker B: Nope. And I have not seen that one yet, but I'm. Maybe I need to in the next few.
[00:54:31] Speaker C: Yeah.
It's also in some ways a celebration of film.
So there's all these other little aspects that happen under the filmmaking.
[00:54:43] Speaker B: Amazing. We could talk. We could go forever talking about we need to do a part two or I need.
[00:54:48] Speaker C: I think you're my new friend.
We're new friends.
[00:54:52] Speaker B: We have a lot more in common.
Well, when you start talking about this stuff to people, there's either those people who say, I can't watch horror films. And I'm just like, okay, goodbye.
And then there's the ones like us who you find there's a lot more
[00:55:06] Speaker C: people who are like us because it may. Horror film makes its own language. And if you're a horror file, you've seen them all. And then you.
[00:55:14] Speaker B: Is that what I am?
[00:55:15] Speaker C: You have a. You have it. It creates a new language of work. And so when you look at Mike Flanagan's films and television series, he is a master of that language. And he's able to.
He's a like, if you look at things like Midnight Mass and his Follow the House of Usher series.
[00:55:35] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah.
[00:55:37] Speaker C: But really, any of his work, he kind of. There's a lot of intertextual elements that he, you know, he's a master of film because he's seen everything. And sometimes if you can recognize his references, his visual references or his, his in text references, then you're rewarded. So not only are you scared, you're like, oh, I know what he's talking about.
[00:55:56] Speaker B: You know, this is so cool. Listen, thank you. Thank you so much for being on the show. I appreciate it so much. And I know that we've got so much else to talk about. I told you I wasn't even going to get to all of my questions. We just.
[00:56:08] Speaker C: Oh, my gosh.
[00:56:09] Speaker B: So this is fascinating. Let me make a few announcements. Don't forget, our shows are recorded and podcasted on Apple Podcast, Spotify, AudioBoom, Voices UA Edu. And just. You can just type. In Brain Matters, you'll find some of our past shows. There's also a link to Voices UA EDU on our counseling center's website, and that's Counseling UA Edu. I always like to thank a few people who've made the show possible. Our executive director here at the counseling center, Dr. Greg Vanderwaal. Katherine Howell, who's my producer, my colleague, my colleagues here at the Counseling center. Gareth Garner is the person who edits our shows every week. And the WVUA staff. And of course, my guest tonight, Michelle Martinez. I appreciate it. Don't forget, we're on next week and our subject is going to our topic is going to be who am I supposed to be? The identity crisis of college. And so that should be another fascinating show. Thanks again for listening. We'll see you here same time, same place, next week. I appreciate it. And you've been listening to Brain Matters. Good night.
[00:57:15] Speaker A: This show was not intended as a substitute for professional counseling. Further, the views, opinions and conclusions expressed by the show hosts or their guests are their own and not necessarily those of the University of Alabama, its officers or trustees. Any views, opinions or conclusions shared on the show do not create a relationship between the host or any guest and any listener, and such a relationship should never be inferred. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, please contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective county's crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
