Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling and no relationship is created between the show host or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective counties crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
[00:00:41] Speaker B: It's six o' clock and time again for Brain Matters, the official radio show of the UA Counseling Center. We are broadcasting from the University of Alabama campus. Good evening, My name is Dr. B.J. guenther and I'm the host of the show along with my colleague and producer Kathryn Howell. And in case you don't know, this show is about mental and physical health issues that affect college students and in particular UA students. So you can listen to us each Tuesday night at 6pm on 90.7 FM or you can listen online at WVUAFM UA edu. You can also download your favorite app, I like the MyTuner radio app and just type in WVUAFM 90.7 and I'll try to remember Catherine wasn't here last week and so I tried really hard to remember to give out our email address when I ask for upcoming topics for this semester. The rest of this semester I've got most of our shows planned out for the rest of this semester, but we'll be recording in the spring. We don't record in the summer, but in the spring I'm gonna need some more topics to talk about and that might be, you know, it could be. Nothing is off hands to us.
I feel like we've done just about every topic that pertains to college students and mental health, but there's always stuff that's trending. There's always information, new research that's trending. And if you hear and want us to do a show on it, please email those to me. The topics to me@brain mattersradiovuafmua.edu and of course I'll consider using your show topic idea and I'll try to remember to give this email address out periodically throughout the show. But today we're talking about something almost all of us have experienced at one time or another. Looking at someone else's life and thinking, why doesn't my life look like that? Our social media feeds can make it seem like everyone else is happier or more successful, more attractive, more confident, or simply More put together than we are. But what happens when that comparison starts affecting the way we see ourselves? Our topic today is the comparison trap. Why everyone else's life looks better than mine. And when I told people we were doing this show, there were so many people that were like, oh, I've got to tune into that, because that sounds so pertinent right now. And joining me to help us understand why we compare ourselves to others and how that comparison affects our mental health and what we can do to break the cycle is Dr. Chris Ferguson. Dr. Ferguson is a psychologist and professor at Stetson University, where he studies psychology and human behavior. And he's here to help us look beyond and the highlight reel and understand what's really happening in our minds when we compare our lives to the lives of other people. Dr. Ferguson, thank you for being on the show. That was a mouthful.
[00:03:19] Speaker C: Well, thank you for having me on today. I really appreciate it.
[00:03:21] Speaker B: Tell the listeners a little bit more about yourself and your credentials and why you're interested in this topic. Sure.
[00:03:30] Speaker C: Okay. Yeah. What would people want to know? Let's see. So I'm a clinical psychologist and I'm a psychology professor at Stetson University, which is in Central Florida. So it's right between Disney and the beach, basically. So it's a pretty good spot. And yes, it is named after the hat guy, by the way, if people were wondering. So he died 150 years ago and left a bucket load of money to the university and named after him, basically. So that's how you get a university named after you.
[00:03:54] Speaker B: And you usually have a really good baseball team.
[00:03:57] Speaker C: Yes, they do have a really good baseball team.
[00:03:59] Speaker B: I will say that. Yes.
[00:04:00] Speaker C: Yeah. And then I actually graduated from there as a student back in 1993, and then now I'm back as a faculty member, so it's been pretty cool. And, yeah, so, I mean, I do research on technology mostly. So, like, I used to do a lot of stuff on violent video games and now more on, like, social media and smartphones. And I sometimes joke that I'm an ambulance chaser. I just kind of follow whatever society's
[00:04:19] Speaker B: panicking about, whatever the trend is.
[00:04:22] Speaker C: Yeah. So sometimes these things go away. Like, nobody's really, you know, like, actually, Grand Theft Auto is coming out next month and it's like, nobody cares that, you know, so different from, like, 20 years ago.
And so sometimes these things kind of come and go.
But so I. So I do that, you know, kind of stuff. And other than that, I'm, you know, I'm married. I have a Young adult son.
Yeah, that's about it. I don't. I play Dungeons and Dragons. I don't think there's anything else terribly.
[00:04:45] Speaker B: Well, you know, we did, we did a show a while back on video gaming, like Gamers, the Psychology of Gamers. And it's been a while since we've done that show. In fact, we used to do this show, used to be live before.
Before COVID destroyed everything.
And now we pre record the show, which is way different. I really liked having the live show, but it's been a while. It's been before COVID that we did that show, the Psychology of Gamers. And we probably need to do another show about that because the turnover has happened. You know, all those students graduated and have gone. So this would be maybe, maybe I should try. Maybe I should consider that in the spring sometime. The way I got your information and why you were intriguing to me as a guest is because some of the research I had done on you is kind of gave. Like when we say social media maybe could be influencing some of this comparison stuff. I think I had read somewhere where you kind of take the opposite stance that it's not necessarily social media. And that was one of my questions. Is social media the problem or does social media simply magnify a comparison habit, you know, that we human beings have always had?
[00:05:56] Speaker C: Yeah, I think it's more of the latter. I mean, obviously social media is one place that we can engage in social comparison and people do absolutely do that, but it's not a new phenomenon.
I think the inclination to engage in social comparison is kind of a very natural one and to some extent can be an adaptive one as long as it's not taken too far. Now, where people start to worry about it or where it becomes a problem is if you begin to compare yourself to other people so much that it becomes depressing or anxiety provoking, or particularly for young women, if that's a body focus. And so it may relate to body dissatisfaction or other types of issues as well.
So I think again, and even in those situations, being kind of talking about where it comes from, it's still an evolutionary adaptation for the most part. That doesn't mean it's always pleasant though. Right. So there are reasons we do it.
And then it just becomes a matter of, you know, how do we manage it so that it doesn't become overwhelming. You know, it can be motivating in some ways, but if it just becomes, you know, like your hope, you feel hopeless, then of course, then it becomes not motivating and that's where we want to draw the line.
[00:07:11] Speaker B: And do you feel like. Do you feel like it's more prevalent in this age group?
[00:07:17] Speaker C: Yes and no. I think like what people socially compare on tends to change, I guess so over time. Yeah. So you think of like teenagers probably socially compare more like popularity. It may be appearance, particularly for young women or girls, you know. Oh, men too, to some extent.
You know, for men, it may also be stuff like, you know, sexuality and how successful they are, you know, dating and things like that, you know. And I think it begins to kind of shift a little bit over time, you know, into. By my age, I'm 55, I'll just out myself and to how old I am, you know, that it's really more about like, you know, accomplishments, money, who has a nice car, who still has all their hair, you know.
[00:08:03] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:03] Speaker C: So it's still, it's still there. It just kind of shifts into different era. Who's the most moral as the other thing we can kind of talk about.
[00:08:13] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:08:14] Speaker C: Plays a role in a lot of social narratives and stuff.
[00:08:16] Speaker A: But.
[00:08:16] Speaker C: But the idea is like, it's all about social status. Right. We're really kind of looking at, at different ages, what. Where we are in the status hierarchy. And so social comparison kind of helps inform us of what our current social status is and what we might need to do in the future in order to obtain higher status, which is what most of us want.
[00:08:35] Speaker B: Right. I named the show the Comparison Trap. But when we talk about a comparison trap, what exactly are we talking about psychologically?
Yeah.
[00:08:45] Speaker C: I think where it becomes sort of a trap is where to some extent, I think social comparison can be motivational. So for instance, you can look at someone as a young person, you can look at someone who's older and think, I would like to accomplish what they've accomplished. You're basically acknowledging they have higher status, they've accomplished more. They may have certain skills or abilities that you want to get to, but you still have some hope. You believe you can get to that point or at least somewhere. Yeah, point, right. You know, and that may motivate you. So I've always liked Pink Floyd and David Gilmore, who's the guitarist. Right. You know, so, yeah, like admiring him as a guitarist, you know, has motivated me to practice something.
[00:09:27] Speaker B: I see the guitars behind.
[00:09:28] Speaker C: Yeah, those guitars in the back.
Yeah. You know what I mean? So, so.
And I never became like a world famous rock star, so that's okay. Right. You know, but. But it becomes a trap where you start to have goals that are just too high and you can't reach them. They're without outside your control.
And then that begins to demotivate you. So it may be anxiety, depression, you know, whatever else. And so, you know, there is this kind of balance between, you know, it is useful to know where you fall in terms of, like, social status and accomplishments, and that can motivate you. But on the other hand, you don't want to take it so far that, you know, you're becoming motivated to do harmful behaviors on one hand, or it's simply leading to hopelessness, and you're just sort of negatively evaluating yourself. It's kind of like this idea, the cliche of, like, everyone has their own race to run, you know, to some extent. So as long as it's kind of positively motivating you, it can be good. If it's starting to get to be the keeping up with the Joneses sort of thing. And now you're doing things you don't really want to do because you think you have to, then it starts to become something of a trap.
[00:10:32] Speaker B: Yeah, I've had kids come in here and talk about they're very competitive anyway. I think this generation is very competitive. I think they almost have to be because so many people are going to college and, you know, graduating.
But sometimes I will have to remind them, oh, it sounds like you're comparing yourself to your roommate. They don't even. Sometimes they don't even realize it. Do you see that often or have you seen that often where they're just kind of in denial about it?
[00:11:05] Speaker C: Oh, absolutely. People may not know the source of, you know, where they're, you know, where it's coming from. And a lot of social comparison, some of it is conscious, certainly, but a lot of it can just be unconscious as well. Like, you are doing this sort of automatically. You're not necessarily aware that you're doing it, you know. So again, like, you know, young women may just notice other women around them and say, oh, they're prettier than I am, or whatever, and that can be kind of negative for them. You know, men as well can do kind of the same thing with other kind of status indicators and such. So, yeah, absolutely.
Again, I think it is the sort of thing that's involved in us to do, and as a consequence, we don't necessarily have to deliberately invoke it, you know, but. But yeah, I mean, it certainly can be an automatic thing. We can do it with people that, if we stopped and thought, we might even think like, oh, I don't Know, do I really need to compare myself? I don't know. Do I even like them? Like, do I even really want their life?
[00:11:57] Speaker B: Maybe. Yeah, maybe some people have that capacity as you get older. Yeah, I would hope so, but there's no guarantee.
Do you think. Are human beings hardwired to compare themselves to each other?
[00:12:11] Speaker C: Yes. I mean, we're a status animal. Yeah. Yeah, we definitely are. So it's just like other primates. Most primates are status oriented. They develop status hierarchies. Humans are no different. We may be a little bit more empathic about it. Some of us. Not all of us.
[00:12:25] Speaker B: Not everybody.
[00:12:26] Speaker C: Not all of us. Speak for yourself.
But we're definitely a status, you know, I mean, that's what matters. I mean, if you kind of get into, like, evolutionary psychology, really, you know, sort of matters what we call, like, mate selection, essentially. That's why, you know, females tend to be more, you know, focused on appearance, sorts of issues, whereas males tend to be more focused on, like, money and cars and, you know, and job and that kind of stuff, because you can. You can see in these studies that, like, the opposite sex, that's what they like, you know. So men tend to pick their mates based upon physical appearance. This isn't a shocker, you know. And then females, women tend to choose their mates based upon, you know, financial status, essentially. Now, other things matter too, like intelligent sense of humor and personality. I'm not saying that's the only thing that matters, necessarily, but across cultures, we do find that, you know, humans tend to value those particular things and there is a sex split, you know, essentially, and what males and females tend to look for on average.
It doesn't mean every single male or female is this way, but, you know.
[00:13:28] Speaker B: Well, and. And I'm probably. And we'll talk about this when we come back from the break, but maybe with cultures, too. I'd like to ask you about that. I don't think I've even written that down for myself. So when we come back, we're gonna take our first break. When we come back, I'm gonna ask you about that, and if you're willing to take an email question somebody sent me prior to the show. Let's take that. That'll be a little more spontaneous, too. So you're listening to brain matters on 90.7. We'll.
[00:14:03] Speaker C: Wvuafm Tuscaloosa.
[00:14:05] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling. And no relationship is created between the show host or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental Health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective county crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
[00:14:44] Speaker B: Hey, you're back listening to Brave matters on 90.7, the Capstone. I'm BJ Gunther and we're talking to tonight about the comparison trap. Why some of us think other people have better lives than we do. And before I forget, if you have any ideas for upcoming show topics, email those to me at brain mattersradiobuafm ua.edu and I'll consider using your show topic. My guest tonight is Dr. Chris Ferguson. He is a clinical psychologist and a professor at Stetson University, which is in which city?
[00:15:16] Speaker C: Florida. So it's between Orlando and Daytona, but DeLand, Florida. Yeah.
[00:15:20] Speaker B: Oh, nice. That's a nice area. Really. I will be in Orlando. I'll be at Disney World in about two weeks.
[00:15:25] Speaker C: All right. It's a good time to go. It's getting a little cool.
[00:15:28] Speaker B: It is my favorite time, Halloween. That's a whole nother show right there.
When we left off, we were talking about the comparison of gender, basically. But also I wanted to ask about culture. Do some cultures compare themselves more to each other more than others? Did that make sense?
[00:15:47] Speaker C: Yes. You can, you can. Yeah, absolutely it does. I mean, you certainly do find that it's fairly universal. There's like, you know, I won't say. Yeah, none is a strong word. Right. But yeah, a vast majority of cultures engage in some degree of status and social comparison. It's just part of how we seem to be wired, you know, as, as humans. Now some cultures can certainly get, you know, more vicious about it, I suppose you might say, where the consequences of losing status are much harsher, for instance, or the things you need to do to get higher status, you know, may be more aversive, you know, so even with appearance related issues, for instance, you can see both men and women in other cultures have to engage in like self mutilation behaviors, for instance, in order to, you know, obtain higher stat. Now granted, some, some Americans do this too with various body mortification and piercings and that kind of stuff. So it's nothing that's, you know, that we're immune to necessarily. Yeah, but I mean, you've seen probably people that have like the rings around their necks and that kind of stuff.
[00:16:49] Speaker B: Oh yeah, yeah.
[00:16:50] Speaker C: That's pretty you know, the foot binding and, you know, in premodern China and that kind of stuff. So there definitely are some examples of this that are harsher, I guess we would say, than what we mostly endure in the modern West.
[00:17:03] Speaker B: Definitely.
[00:17:04] Speaker C: Yeah, but. But it's shocking in some cases. Yeah.
[00:17:08] Speaker B: What about the research? Does the research show or is there research on how much it has changed, let's say, in the last 20 years? Has it gotten worse comparing yourself to other people? Do you know anything about that?
[00:17:23] Speaker C: Yeah, I don't think there's any evidence to suggest it's gotten worse.
I think it shifts around a little bit. So, like, what people are focused in on, you know, and that can sometimes make it feel like it's getting worse because you're. We're focused on like one particular thing. So, like, for instance, like, you know, thinking again of like, women embodied the satisfaction across the really, like late 19th into the 20th century, sort of like a thinner, more athletic figure became preferred. It's nothing, it's nothing recent in the last couple of decades, but, you know, but you know, there was this shift and there's lots of reasons for why that shift may have happened.
But, you know, but of course, people sort of panic about like anorexia nervosa or bulimia nervosa and tied into, you know, eating disorders and things like that. So I think that sometimes we kind of like focus in on that and think like that particular element of social comparison has, you know, quote, unquote, gotten worse.
And certainly over like 150 years, it's sort of, you know, the sort of.
I really think it's more of an athletic than a thin ideal.
This idea. You should be trim and athletic, you know, you know, certainly is more noticeable than it was 150 years ago.
[00:18:31] Speaker B: You know, Chris, I am hearing more students talking about social, like comparing themselves socially, making friends, other people who can make friends more easily than they can. That's what I'm hearing a lot of now that I'm thinking about it.
[00:18:50] Speaker C: Yeah, well, I mean, social networks are an element of social status. You know, the more social status, the higher status you typically tend to be, you know, so I think, you know, and it's tricky because it's also personal, logical, like, you know, sort of extroversion. Introversion plays a role in this.
[00:19:04] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, we talked about that.
[00:19:05] Speaker C: So there's that other dynamic. But, you know, sort of if we control for extroversion, introversion, then generally speaking, you tend to see that people that have, you know, broader social networks tend to be, on average happier than those that don't. Now, if they're introverts, that's not really true, but, you know, but that's sort of controlling for that. Yeah. So. Yeah, but again, I don't think that's necessarily, necessarily a new thing that, you know, popularity, if you will. I mean, you can look at like movies about teens from 1950s, you know, and popularity was a theme, you know. You know, way back.
[00:19:35] Speaker B: That was the thing.
[00:19:36] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:19:37] Speaker B: So, you know, I mentioned in the introduction a little bit about highlight reels, especially on social media. You know, people compare your ordinary life to like behind the scenes lives, you know, with everyone else's highlight reels, basically.
How do we actually know how people's. We don't, I guess, how people's lives are actually going or are people filling in the blanks?
[00:20:01] Speaker C: Yeah, I think, I think a lot of the times they are. I mean, I think we have to remember with social media and of course, like other places as well, that people in a public sphere will oftentimes try to portray the best aspects of their life. It's something we call positive image management. That. And I'm a classic. I always use myself as an example of this. Like, I'm an old dude, right. So I'm mostly on Facebook, you know, which is like the obituary page for social media.
[00:20:28] Speaker B: You want to age yourself.
[00:20:31] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:20:32] Speaker C: All the kids are on. Like, I think even Instagram's getting old now, but I guess it's. TikTok really is a big one now. But you know, Snapchat.
[00:20:41] Speaker B: Still kind of in. Yeah, still kind of in.
[00:20:45] Speaker C: But you know, I mean, what I post on Facebook mostly is like, you know, I, you know, I've been married 24 years to a beautiful woman, you know, so I post about my beautiful wife life and about my, my cool car, you know, guitars, house on a pond, my guitars, you know. Yeah, my, my, my job, like, oh, I'm on sabbatical now. I, you know, I don't know myself. Yeah. All this kind of bragging, but I don't like, if I have like, I don't know, like financial problems or whatever, I don't put that on Facebook. Right.
[00:21:11] Speaker B: You know what I mean?
[00:21:12] Speaker C: Or, you know, I don't know, like, you know, if I just had like a bad day at work or something like that, I, I generally don't put that on Facebook. Right. The point being is like, you know, and of course I'll say I always like to brag too. I'm 55, right. And I have all My hair. Right. So, you know, that is an element of sliver comparison. Right.
[00:21:32] Speaker B: You are the lucky ones.
[00:21:34] Speaker C: Now, in fairness, I'm fair now I'll slam myself. I'm also a very short dude, so I'm very aware of, like, male social comparison, like, in terms of height. You know what I mean? So I make fun of myself now, too. I've always been a short dude, but that, but like, you know, and that's an element of social comparison. Like, maybe I was always a little envious of. Of the tall guys, but that points out, like, why it's important. Like, why am I envious of the tall guys?
[00:21:54] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:21:55] Speaker C: It's because women like tall guys more than, like, short guys. That's just reality of it, you know, at least on average. At least. Right. You know, lucky and I finally found a woman who, you know, was immune to that effect. But. But point being is like, like, when you see someone on Facebook or any place, Instagram or anything else, most of those people are like, artificially inflating the positives of their life. You know what I mean? And so when you're comparing yourself to these other people, it can be very easy to think, like, look, what a wonderful life they have.
Flawless, you know, beautiful spouse, you know, awesome job.
[00:22:31] Speaker B: They have it all.
[00:22:32] Speaker C: They have it all. But you don't know everything that's going on in their lives. And maybe they have, you know, a problem with alcohol. You know, you know, you never know because they're not going to tell you this stuff on Facebook. Yeah. And hopefully, you know, not. I don't want anyone to have a problem with alcohol. That's not a wishful thinking here sort of thing. But. But yeah, I mean, I think that's a trick is you have to kind of like realize, like, yeah, people are going to present, like, the awesome stuff about themselves and then you won't see the negative stuff. I mean, even, like, with rock stars, you know, you do sometimes hear about how stressful their lives are actually. And, you know, at 55, I, with my wife's encouragement, sometimes I recognize, like, I'm actually probably pretty lucky I didn't get that lifestyle, even though I kind of wanted it when I was 20. And that the sort of, like, lazy I get, like, I would end up being like eight months off in a row, you know, college professor thing, especially, maybe more suited to my life.
But here I am doing positive image management. Right. That's right.
[00:23:32] Speaker B: Positive image management. I like that. But you know what's a little bit scary is like, the age group that we're talking to, the college students specifically, I don't know, some of them have the capacity to like, have some insight about it. But that's part of the problem, I think with them is they don't have that capacity yet to say, okay, wait a minute, they've got problems too, you know, like whoever they're following. Because what kinds of things do college students tend to compare most?
Think about it. They're comparing grades, they're comparing friendships, social networks, relationships, appearance. You mentioned that. Internships. I hear that a lot.
Money, money, of course. And then the big one. And I usually do an end of the year show about graduation because that's a big one too. Graduation and getting married.
[00:24:23] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:24:24] Speaker B: You know, right after, after college.
[00:24:27] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Those are, those are all. I mean, think of those things. Like, particularly in like western cultures with all the things that you mentioned are kind of like there is this hierarchy of life, right? I mean, we're supposed to get through high school, then we get through college somewhere, pick up a girlfriend or a boyfriend in the middle of there, eventually marry that girlfriend or boyfriend, get a good job somewhere in there too, have the two and a half kids or whatever. And then the golden retriever, the nice house, the golden retriever, if you're not allergic, that kind of stuff. And then eventually go up in your career, have bragging rights about becoming a. I don't. Administrator or something. Whatever. Whatever's supposed to be cool in your area. And then you retire. And then when you retire, you know, you get all the trips, you know, the, the cool, you know, over 55 villa that you live in, you know.
You know, or whatever, you know, and then you get the beautiful funeral with the bag.
[00:25:24] Speaker B: You go through the whole gamut.
[00:25:26] Speaker C: But the point is that linearity, right? There's this kind of expectation.
And I think those do become these, like, comparisons of how, how far along, you know, is your whole life. And those. And those might not all be the right thing. Like maybe some people don't. Aren't going to want kids and that's okay, you know, and maybe someone wants to play guitar on the beach and stick their hat out and earn a few bucks and they're happy living that way. They'll never have a lot of money, but, you know, they're, you know. Anyway, point being is, again, coming bring it back to this idea. Like, you know, first off, you get the same six feet of dirt no matter what you do in your life at the end of it. So trying to figure out what your path is and how you're doing in terms of your own personal goals is probably a lot more useful than trying to, like I said, keep up with the Joneses and trying to match someone else's success that whatever they're doing might work for them, but it might not be the same right thing for you.
[00:26:21] Speaker B: And maybe we've touched on, we have touched on this a little bit, but a little more specific. Like how does comparing yourself, how does that affect a student's self esteem or their identity?
[00:26:34] Speaker C: It depends on how you decide you, where you come out.
So and you know we talked about like women and body image and that kind of stuff too. So it's a great example of this is that like what doesn't oftentimes come up with when you talk about like women in social comparison and body image and that kind of stuff is like a fairly non trivial chunk of women when they see actresses in TV shows actually come out thinking I look prettier than her.
And so you actually do get people like women, you know, who have a positive reaction from social comparison to even other pretty women and stuff, you know. So it is highly variable. Like I said like now as a 55 year old dude with all his hair and you know, mostly haven't hit, you know, I think probably the things I kind of wanted did not everything but you know, most of the things I know, I look at the people on my like high school page, I think doing pretty good, you know, I'm all right, you know, so. So it really does. So it's not like a universal experience, right? You can come out of social comparison feeling pretty good if you end up deciding that you rank pretty high, at least in terms of your own internal goals, you know. On the other hand, if you, you know, are say 55 and you're. I don't want to pick on the balding guys, you know, but you're balding and you don't have your, you've lost your job and you've been divorced twice and your kids then you might not feel so great, you know what I mean? So that's, that's kind of the thing but it's also kind of pointing out, I mean the, the trick with like social comparison is it's not necessarily always wrong. I mean, I'm suggesting sometimes it can be if you're using other people's goals rather than your own, that can be problematic. But on the other hand, I mean it is kind of a quasi realistic assessment of like where you're matching with other people too. So and that can be part of the difficulty and like getting people to deal with social comparison. Like if you are the drug abusing prisoner, you know, like kind of feeling like you didn't hit your goals is true.
[00:28:32] Speaker B: Well, and if you already have, you know, if you've already grown up with like poor self esteem, it just makes it worse, you know, just, it just magnifies it until. And we'll get to how, what you can do about this. We'll get to that in a minute. But yeah, it would just magnify it, make it worse. Yeah. Hey, let's take our next break and when we come back, I keep teasing you about the, the email that I'm getting. So when we come back, I'm going to read that off to you and let you answer that on the air. So we'll be right back. You're listening To Brain Matters 19.7 the Capstone.
[00:29:14] Speaker C: Wvuafm Tuscaloosa.
[00:29:16] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling and no relationship is created between the show host or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective counties crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
[00:29:54] Speaker B: Hey, you're back listening to brain matters on 90.7 the Capstone. I'm Dr. B.J. guenther. We're talking tonight about the comparison trap, why we see other people's lives as better than our own life. And My guest is Dr. Chris Ferguson. He's a clinical psychologist and professor at Stetson University. And don't forget, before I forget, our email is brain mattersradiovuafmua.edu if you're listening and you want us to do a show about college mental health and we haven't talked about the topic or maybe it's been a while since we, since we've talked about it, email me the show idea and I'll consider using your topic. Dr. Ferguson, before I forget, what classes are you? Well, you're on sabbatical, but what classes do you usually teach?
[00:30:34] Speaker C: Well, in the, in the spring, I'll be teaching abnormal psychology and then forensic psychology.
[00:30:39] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:30:40] Speaker C: Media and behavior. You know, so those obviously are kind of all in my, my wheelhouse that
[00:30:45] Speaker B: usually hooks people though abnormal usually that deter. That helped me determine that what was going to Be that psychology was going to be my major. Yeah. Because it was that fascinating and it wasn't really trendy back then. You know, I feel like now a lot more people are majoring in psychology.
[00:31:02] Speaker C: This one of the. Certainly for us, it's one of the biggest majors, really. I don't know if it's the biggest, but it's, you know, because it's also the business school. A lot of people go into the business school. So I think it's like psychology and the business school, like, all together are like the two top.
[00:31:16] Speaker B: Abnormal and forensic. Those are two very.
Those are interesting, you know, as opposed to, like, developmental.
Developmental. That was awful for me. But anyway. Okay, I'm gonna ask you the email question. How do adults and students get out of the habit of looking at everyone else's life as more fun or better or happier? We've been talking about this the whole time, but do you have any tips?
[00:31:39] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, I don't. I think it's sort of like, you know, I don't want the advice to be like, you shouldn't get angry at people. Right. You know, because that's never going to happen. I. Oh, and it happens.
[00:31:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:31:48] Speaker C: You are going to compare yourself to other people. But the point is, like, how do you manage it in a positive way? Right. You know, so the things you want to ask is, you know, is this social comparison that you're doing helping you further your own goals, or is it simply making you miserable, in which case you probably can stop. Like. Like, I even use the example of, like, the prisoner who's got substance abuse problems. But even that guy, having worked with tons of prisoners, like, even that guy can, you know, change their life. You know what I mean? Like, I've seen a lot of people that are at rock bottom come around, you know, and sometimes you can say, like, here's where I am, and, you know, I'm not where I want to be. And a lot of people have gotten a lot further in life. I don't need to worry about their life necessarily. Right. But maybe this helps me understand what my goals are with the remainder of my life and I can start thinking about how do I hit my. My goal. So if the social comparison is helping you to sort of sort through your own personal goals and maybe motivate you, like, hey, that person did it. I can do it too, you know, then it can be useful. On the other hand, if you're just miserable because Ted next door, you know, has a better dog than you do or whatever, you know, then it's not really super helpful. And you can try to, as much as possible, disconnect. That's that rumination. It's like a lot of other areas where we ruminate. Right. You know, we can try these. There are techniques that can help us try to stop ruminating. And if there are certain places, and that could be social media or. But it could also be places in real life that you're going there and you're just being reminded over and over again about something that's a, you know, sore spot for you. You can drop those spots. You know, you could, like, take a break from Facebook.
Don't keep going to the same.
[00:33:29] Speaker B: And some people do.
It's hard. It's hard to have that discipline. I feel like.
I don't know if it's called compartmentalizing, help me name this, but it's almost like sometimes I will help people look at how their little world is going instead of the big picture. They're looking at, you know, Taylor Swift or they're looking at the big, you know, the world, what's going on in the world. And I have to bring it back down to kind of ground them a little bit. How's it going in your little world?
[00:34:00] Speaker C: Right. Yeah.
[00:34:01] Speaker B: And put it in perspective.
[00:34:03] Speaker C: Yeah. I think it's a matter of, like, you know, really forming a distinction between what are your goals as an individual versus what are someone else's goals.
[00:34:10] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:34:10] Speaker C: You know, just because someone else, like, like, you think of, like, these, like, CEOs of industry. I mean, they have. They obviously have achieved incredible things, and I would never want their life. You know, there's no way that I. You know, it comes with a lot of money and stuff, but I pass, you know, because first off, they work way harder than I ever want to, you know, and stuff like that. They have lots of stress and everybody hates them and this sort of, you know, so there's lots of downsides, too.
And I think of, like. You know, you think of like, Taylor Swift or whatever. Like, you know, again, it's that sense of like, yeah, she's. You know, I'm not a big fan of her music or anything or. Nor a detractor. I. I am neutral on Taylor Swift, so don't hate me one way or the other. Even that sometimes don't come for Dr. Ferguson.
Yeah.
No strong opinion on Taylor Swift, but, you know. But, you know, I'm sure she's got challenges in her life. Right.
Wrong thing. And she gets a Twitter mob running after because they think she's bigoted in one way or I know that that has happened with her in a few occasions. Right. You know what I mean? So, yeah. Yeah. She definitely has some perks for her life. She's very talented. Obviously she has a lot of great stuff going on, but she has to deal with also stressors. We all know the recording industry is incredibly stressful. A lot of pressure on those individuals. Yeah. Yes, it would be wonderful. People would come here, be, you know, play guitar by the tens of thousands. But on the other hand, I have relatively little stress in my life, you know, as a 10 year academic, you know, and that's by design. Again, that doesn't mean that my life's right for everybody either. It's just a matter of like figuring out what are your priorities in life and, and how are you going to get towards those rather than worrying about someone else.
[00:35:46] Speaker B: Right.
[00:35:46] Speaker C: And what they're going through. Yeah.
[00:35:48] Speaker B: Somebody, somebody emailed me. What are your thoughts on gratitude? Journaling to combat the effects of constant comparisons.
[00:35:55] Speaker C: Absolutely. They. Trying to find gratitude in your life is an awesome.
[00:35:59] Speaker B: That's a good idea.
[00:36:00] Speaker C: Yeah, that was a very good idea. Remembering the things that are going well and actually, you know, like, I talked about my wife a couple times. She's really, really good about that and reminded me about that too. And it really does help to sometimes, you know, and again, that's another way of breaking that rumination. Right. Is you know, a lot of like cognitive behavioral therapy is about like stopping the train of thought you're on and figuring out some sort of mechanistic way of moving on to a more productive, you know, train of thought and like, you know, journaling or even just thinking, you know, about like you're making the conscious effort to spend a little time and thinking about the things that are going well in your life, the progress you have made towards your goals and you know, be thankful for those things can be very, you know, positive, you know, and most of us, you know, I know sometimes we think, oh, my life stinks, my life sucks, whatever, but usually we. There actually are some things that are going on. Maybe you have loving parents, you know, maybe a good friend somewhere, you know, you have your physical health, hopefully. And I know, you know, any of these things may not be true for any one individual, but you know, usually most of it has something we can fall back on and think, I can start here and build upon that to, you know, get to where I want to go in the future.
[00:37:05] Speaker B: Yeah. I try to ask students about their accomplishments, but when I ask that question they always jump to the big stuff, really big stuff, you know, and sometimes they will say, I don't know if I have any. And I have to break it down for them to the smaller stuff, like graduating from high school. Like, there's a lot of people in this world who still do not graduate from high school for whatever reason. They don't look at it like that, though, because of these comparisons that are huge. You know, the money, the making 4.0s and all that.
Oh, my gosh. What?
What? Why does some comparison hurt more when we're comparing ourselves to people we know personally?
[00:37:50] Speaker C: Yeah. I think. I think there are two situations. One is if we feel that we're failing on a metric that other people want us to succeed on, I think is what. In other words, other people have goals for us that are not necessarily our goals, and we feel like we're letting them down.
For instance, if your parents want you to become a doctor.
[00:38:13] Speaker B: Oh, yes.
[00:38:13] Speaker C: And it's just, like, it's not your thing. You're just not good at chemistry, you know, and you don't really want to be a doctor, but, you know, it's important to mom and dad or things like that. I think that can set people up to be really in a stressful situation because they may feel like they're not hitting goals that they're not motivated to hit in the first place, but then they also may have that guilt response, you know, where not only are they not meeting these goals, they're gonna let somebody down, but they're letting people down.
[00:38:42] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:38:43] Speaker C: And that sort of thing, too. Yeah, yeah. And I think the other is, like, when people have, like, unrealistic.
You know, so they've. It is a goal that they want, but it's just so out there, you
[00:38:53] Speaker B: know, they are bad at math, and they want to be a doctor.
[00:38:56] Speaker C: Yes. Or something like that.
[00:38:58] Speaker B: Or.
[00:38:58] Speaker C: I mean. And honestly, I use myself as an example here. I mean, just like, I want to be a rock star. Yeah. I think, like, it happens occasionally to people. Right. But the odds of it ever actually happening are. And it didn't happen in my situation. Right. And that's okay. Yeah. So that's. That's not like, you know, mom would always tell you to have plan B, you know, kind of stuff. Right. You know, and, you know, and as a college professor, I get some of the aspects of that. I'm on stage, I get to, like, you know, talk about the things I like. You know, I tell stupid dad jokes, and occasionally the kids are nice and laugh, you know, that sort of stuff, you know, So I get aspects of that, you know, a little bit. But I also don't have the hassle of what, like, actual rock stars have to live with. So, you know, there is that sense of, like, yeah, you can set pretty big goals, but also kind of have, like, intermediary goals. And I think if people really are setting goals that are way, way up and either way, way in the future when they're intermediary steps or they're just kind of. I don't want to say unrealistic. I don't want to sound like grandma, that kind of stuff, but you know what I mean? Like, it's a moonstrate.
[00:39:57] Speaker B: It is a fine line for me as a therapist. It's a fine line between bursting somebody's bubble and telling the truth, because I'm blunt. And so, you know, with us here at Alabama, for me personally, I'm seeing more students who are majoring in engineering.
There, I said it. And they hate it. Like, I'm seeing several that just hate it. But they're on a full scholarship. Their parents are all, you know, gung ho for them to be an engineer, and they are miserable. So we have to figure out how, you know, how we're gonna change this and break it down for them and break it to the parents.
[00:40:34] Speaker C: Yeah, AI is gonna do all that stuff in the future.
[00:40:37] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh.
[00:40:37] Speaker A: I know.
[00:40:38] Speaker B: Tell me about it. Is that what I should just tell. Just use chat GPT?
[00:40:42] Speaker C: Yeah. Well, fun fact, I wasn't Eng major my first semester of college. Actually, I switched over to psychology.
[00:40:48] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:40:49] Speaker C: That's the exact reasons you were.
[00:40:50] Speaker B: Okay. Were your parents all happy and ready for you to be an engineer and all set, you know, and did you have that pressure on you like I'm talking about?
[00:40:59] Speaker C: I remember mostly my grandmother, who was Irish Catholic, really, really thought that I had, like, failed, like, change from, like the. Like, like from engineering to, like, puppetry, basically. Like, I chosen, like, this, the silliest possible major. I. I apologize to any puppet majors. Puppet puppetry.
[00:41:21] Speaker B: There's none here.
[00:41:22] Speaker C: Lovely. You know, I mean, like, it just. It just had that sense of, like, what are you doing with yourself?
[00:41:28] Speaker B: Like, how are you going to support yourself, Chris?
[00:41:30] Speaker C: It was. Basically. It was. And obviously I turned out pretty good in the end. All right. You know, I guess I would have been more money if I was an engineer, but.
But I did. I didn't like it, you know, And I thought. And in fairness, I kind of thought that I would because it was like, I thought I was like, building toys, but it turns out this, like, calculus and stuff. Well, and I didn't care for that, you know, and with some of these
[00:41:50] Speaker B: kids, you know, like you were talking about some of these kids, they, they are bad at math, but they want to be the engineer, you know, and they're majoring in engineering, but they're failing, you know, Diffie Q if they've made it that far. Which Diffie Q is like a horror movie to me to think about that because I'm terrible at math and I, I feel like I have to be the one to question, well, do you think this is the correct, you know, major for you? I have to, like, tippy toe around it sometimes.
[00:42:20] Speaker C: Would you want to drive over a bridge that you built? You know?
[00:42:24] Speaker B: Thank you.
That is what I'm sitting there thinking sometimes. Oh, my gosh.
Hey, listen, we're going to take our last break and when we come back, let's talk some more about breaking the trap, the comparison trap. I like talking about this because most people want to know, like, what do I need to do? We've talked about that a little bit. We'll talk more about it when we come back. You're listening to brain matters in 90.7 the capstone.
[00:42:57] Speaker C: Wvuafm Tuscaloosa.
[00:43:00] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling and no relationship is created between the show host or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective counties crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
[00:43:38] Speaker B: Hey, you're back listening to brain matters on 90.7 the Capstone. I'm BJ Guenther. We're talking tonight about the comparison trap. I think everybody does it. It doesn't. Doesn't matter your age, comparing yourself to other people's lives and feeling like their life is better than your life. And my guest tonight has been fun, Dr. Chris Ferguson. And he. I think it's been fun because you're on sabbatical and you're relaxed a little bit, right? Relax.
[00:44:02] Speaker C: I normally be. Yeah.
[00:44:03] Speaker B: He's a professor.
[00:44:04] Speaker C: Miss the kids.
That won't last long.
[00:44:08] Speaker B: Dr. Chris is the professor at Stetson University, which is in central Florida. Is the.
Is yalls nickname the Hatters.
[00:44:16] Speaker C: Hatters, yeah.
[00:44:17] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:44:19] Speaker C: Super intimidating. I go oh, watch out. The Hatters.
[00:44:22] Speaker B: About as intimidating as the Miami Dolphins. I mean, get real. You know, if we want to, we could do a whole show of intimidating, you know, nicknames or mascots. But when we left off before the break, we were talking about some ways to, like, break the trap, the comparison trap. I mean, I think the biggest thing is to recognize what's going on.
[00:44:42] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:44:43] Speaker B: To have some insight into, oh, I'm comparing myself to so and so, you know, and reckon, and then you can do something about it. But I don't know. Some people don't realize it's happening.
[00:44:53] Speaker C: Yeah, I think that's absolutely. I mean, it's pretty straightforward, Right. I mean, you can't really fix something unless you recognize that it's a problem in the first place. So. Yeah, I mean, you know, with a lot of these things, too, is like, whether you're being social with a group of people or you're on social media or whatever. I mean, these should be fun experiences, right? You know? Oh. I mean, not every social experience is fine.
[00:45:11] Speaker B: Right.
[00:45:11] Speaker C: But, you know, if you're, like, actually social socializing on purpose in order to get the socialization, it should be mostly fun. And if you find yourself, like, in these kind of situations where you're trying to do a leisure activity with other individuals, whether it's online or in person, and you find that you're just, like, you feel anxious, you know, or you're feeling the social comparison, you might want to think about, like, well, is. Is this the kind of social environment that's really good for me, you know? You know, and is there an alternative that maybe is a bit more positive
[00:45:40] Speaker B: and either stop being around them or stop or don't follow them on social media, like you mentioned before.
[00:45:46] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, social media should be fun. I mean, in many ways, I defend social media in the sense of that I don't think it's the cause of, like, a youth mental health epidemic or any of this kind of nonsense that people are. But. But, yeah, but on the other hand, social media should be fun, right? So if you're on social media, you find that you're not having fun. Like, don't. Don't do it. I mean, you know, I don't know
[00:46:06] Speaker B: if you do this. I don't know if Catherine does this. I do this periodically. Maybe like once a year, I'll go through who I'm following, and I'm like, I don't want to follow them anymore.
[00:46:15] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:46:15] Speaker B: You know, and I don't follow them anymore. And that helps relieve Me of some of the, you know, stress.
[00:46:22] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, you definitely can unfollow or mute or things like that. So if you're afraid of like offending them, there are ways to quietly stop, you know, noticing what they're doing on a lot of social media platforms at least so you don't have to have a conflict, like somebody's not going to know, like, why did you stop following me on Instagram? All that kind of stuff, you know, so you just quietly mute them and stuff while you're still friends or whatever. And then, yeah, then you don't have to, you know, if this person is always bragging about like their latest, you know, work or school accomplishment is over and over again, then you just mute them. You don't have to hear it anymore.
[00:46:53] Speaker B: It's kind of nice. What would you say to students who say, I know I shouldn't compare myself to other people, but I can't stop?
[00:47:02] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, I think you, first off, don't let guilt be the next thing that becomes a problem for you, you know. So I think the one thing I would worry about is they're going to socially compare and feel bad. Then they're going to feel guilty about socially comparing and then feel twice as bad, you know. So again, first off, recognize that it is normal that it's hardwired into us to do this sort of thing. So don't feel guilty about it. But I think also trying to learn how to see patterns that are exacerbating your anxiety as opposed to being productive. So like doom scrolling, you know, following people that are just making you anxious, you know, that sort of stuff. And like you said, like, and then coming up with a plan that if I'm starting to feel anxious when I'm in person or online with these people, what is my get out of jail, you know, plan to back out of the situation so I don't have to keep staying in it and stuff. And that might be something like if you have a partner or a friend or a family member or you know, a therapist, you know, who can help you kind of work that sort of stuff out, you know. And certainly here, here's what's happening. I'm going online, I'm hanging out my friends and I start feeling anxious because they are all smarter than I am or blah, blah, blah, they're probably not, but it's how it looks, you know, or going to this club and I hang out with my friends and they seem to be more successful, you know, finding romantic partners or whatever else that I Then you know, like, what's your plan to either stop worrying about it or do you need to change your social interactions in a certain way so that you're not dropping your friends necessarily, but you're engaging with them in ways that feel better for you?
[00:48:32] Speaker B: You're limiting it.
[00:48:33] Speaker C: Limiting it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And that might be something like. Yeah. You know, in the moment, it's hard for us to know what to do with our emotions. So that's why it's important for us to have a plan, you know, for. Here's what did. That's why I think the army trains people. Right. You know, so that when you're under fire and you're stressed, you still know automatically what to do because you were trained, you have a plan cognitively, you know what to do, and fear won't incapacitate you. So it's like the same thing. We're not going to send you out
[00:49:00] Speaker B: into like gunfire on our strip where the bars are.
[00:49:05] Speaker C: It's kind of like that, but working with someone. So, like, the next time you find yourself thinking like, ah, you know, blah, blah, blah, you know, I wish I was more. And blah, whatever it is that you think of, like, well, here's how you. Here's what you're going to do if you're. If you're feeling like you're just like competing with your friends and you don't want to, like, here's the. Here's your exit strategy. And then, you know, and then you actually can feel kind of good that you employed your exit strategy.
[00:49:26] Speaker B: I like that.
[00:49:27] Speaker C: I like that.
[00:49:27] Speaker B: I was going to ask you for your last. Your last thought, you know, like a closing thought.
You know, what would you tell a student if they were sitting right there in front of you? But I like that to kind of have a plan, like a dialogue, almost like a silent dialogue of what. What would I do? What am I going to do? If it gets to be a certain point, you need to know that certain point.
[00:49:48] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:49:48] Speaker B: When it becomes so stressful for you.
[00:49:50] Speaker C: Yeah. Identify what are the trigger areas? You know, and then once you sort of find yourself in those, you know, situations, what is your plan? A very mechanistic, automatic plan to get yourself back out of those situations so that you more productive.
[00:50:05] Speaker B: You have to have that. And that would work for most people. I don't think most students realize it though. You know, that's the key.
[00:50:13] Speaker C: Well, you know, and I'm sure your campus is similar to ours. You know, the counseling services are free. And these, this is, you know, fairly for most individuals, individuals, the sort of social comparison, it's not like a mental illness. Right. Like I said, it's actually kind of natural. So this is something that you could work out pretty easily, I think, with, you know, even a counselor at your university to work on these kinds of plans. You know, it doesn't require medication. You know, obviously if you have more severe symptoms and, you know, it's a whole different story. But you know, with this sort of stuff is, you know, just if, you know, either talk to someone you trust or if you feel like you don't have someone around that you could do.
[00:50:43] Speaker B: Come to the counseling center.
[00:50:44] Speaker C: Yeah, go to the counseling center.
[00:50:45] Speaker B: Yeah. Perfect. Perfect. Thank you for being on the show. This went by really fast.
[00:50:49] Speaker C: Yeah, this is fun. I appreciate you having me on really, really fast.
[00:50:52] Speaker B: I appreciate you so much. This is very interesting. Go back to your sabbatical. Making us feel, comparing myself to you right now, but I really appreciate it. And like I said, this will be, this will air next Tuesday and then we'll be on Apple and Spotify. I always remind people, don't forget, our shows are recorded and podcasted on Apple podcast, Spotify, AudioBoom and also voices UA Edu. Just type in Brain Matters and you'll find some past shows. There's also a link to Voices UA Edu on the Counseling Center's website at Counseling ua Edu so you can find us there.
As always, I'd like to thank a few people have made the show possible. Our executive director here at the counseling center, Dr. Greg Vanderwaal, my producer and my colleague Katherine Howell, my colleagues here at the Counseling center who are always so supportive. Gareth Garner, he edits our shows weekly. I really appreciate him and the WBC and of course, my guest tonight, Dr. Chris Ferguson. Don't forget, we're on again next week and we're gonna have a very interesting show again.
I seem like I talk about this a lot with people who are about to graduate, with students who are about to graduate, but I'm calling the show the Anxiety of Adulting.
And so join us next week. We'll be on the same time, same place, 6 o' clock on WVUAFM. And if you, if you have, like I said before, if you have any ideas for show topics, email those to me@brain mattersradiovuafm.ua edu. We'll see you next week. Good night.
[00:52:30] Speaker A: This show was not intended as a substitute for professional counseling. Further, the views, opinions and conclusions expressed by the show hosts or their guests are their own. And not necessarily necessarily those of the University of Alabama, its officers or trustees. Any views, opinions or conclusions shared on the show do not create a relationship between the host or any guest and any listener, and such a relationship should never be inferred. If you feel you're in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, please contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective counties Crisis Service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
