[00:00:00] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling and no relationship is created between the show host or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective counties crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
[00:00:41] Speaker B: It's six o' clock in time again for Brain Matters, the official radio show of the UA Counseling Center. We are broadcasting from the campus of the University of Alabama. Good evening. My name is Dr. B.J. guenther and I'm the host of the show along with my colleague and producer Kathryn Howell. And in case you don't know, this show is about mental and physical health issues that affect college students, in particular UA students. So you can listen to us each Tuesday night at 6pm on 90.7 FM or you can listen online at WVUAFM UA. Edu. You can also download one of your favorite apps, I like the MyTuner radio app and type in WVUAFM 90.7 and listen to us live that way.
We're almost through. We're past spring break, so we're over halfway done with this academic semester and I have most of my shows, you know, already scheduled. But I'm going to need help with some show topic ideas for next semester, which will be fall. We don't do shows in the summer, only fall and spring. So if you're listening and you have some ideas for show topics that we haven't done, or maybe we have done, but it's been a while, email those to me@brain mattersradiovuafm ua edu and I'll consider using your topic. And Catherine's gonna help me remember to give out the email when we come back from breaks because I'm really bad about that. Today's show I have been looking forward to this show since not only I scheduled it, but came up with the idea for the show dives into a topic that is both fascinating and at times deeply unsettling. The psychological world of cults and high control groups. Joining me is Rick Allen Ross, one of the nation's leading experts on cults, coercive persuasion and controversial movements. He's the founder and executive director of the Cult Education Institute, an organ dedicated to researching, documenting and educating the public about cults and their impact. And for decades, Rick Allen has worked with individuals and families affected by high control groups, consulted on major legal cases, has been featured on multiple national media for his expertise. His work sheds light on how manipulation happens, why people get pulled in, and what it really takes to break free. And today we're going beyond the headlines to understand the psychology behind these groups, how they operate, who they target, and what we can all learn to better protect ourselves and the people we love. Rick Allen, thank you so much for being on the show. That was a mouthful.
[00:03:10] Speaker C: Thank you for hosting me.
[00:03:13] Speaker B: This is exciting because I really don't, first of all, tell the listeners a little bit more about yourself and your credentials and why you got involved and interested in this topic.
[00:03:24] Speaker C: Well, it just happened. I started out as an anti cult activist.
My grandmother lived in a Jewish nursing home in Arizona. And that nursing home was infiltrated, that is the paid professional staff, by a group that was targeting Jews and in particular elderly Jews.
And I would find out about this through my grandmother. And so I started out as a concerned family member.
My grandmother was very upset by being confronted by one of these people.
And I worked on committees in, at that time, Phoenix, Arizona, and then later national committees. And it just grew until I worked for a social service agency in Phoenix, Jewish Family and Children's Service, and then also taught a course for the Bureau of Jewish Education, first for high school students and later for adults.
But I never really planned on this as a career.
It was something that started out as a desire to protect my family and in particular my grandmother.
And then what came out of that also were people coming to me asking, would you please talk to my son, my daughter, my family member, who is in this very weird group.
And they seem like they're not thinking independently for themselves and they seem so dependent on that group to think for them. And will you help me? And I did. And now I've done what, over 500 interventions across the United States and internationally.
And this really grew out of again, starting out as a volunteer. And then subsequent to that, I was asked to be an expert witness in court cases.
I've testified twice in Alabama.
I recently testified in the case of a Legio Bishop, a cult leader known as Nature Boy who led a group called Carbonation and was tried for sexual abuse, unlawful imprisonment in Atlanta, Georgia, and he was convicted.
And many of your listeners may recall a group called Nexium led by Keith Ranieri. I testified as a fact witness in his criminal trial.
And so I have testified across the United States in 13 different states. I've been qualified, accepted and testified.
And then Also testified in United States federal court.
So this has been something that kind of happened to me along my life. It was not something I planned. And now I've been doing my work for over 40 years.
And the Cult Education Institute@cult education.com was launched in 1996, which was pretty early in the Internet era. And it became and is one of the largest databases of information about groups called cults or controversial groups and movements that have been called cult like or authoritarian.
And this is just a database that's free to the public where people can research different groups.
And then my book Cults Inside out, which has been out now for a number of years, is an examination not only of cults, but of the intervention process in which I explain in detail how that works.
[00:07:29] Speaker B: Well, I mean, define. We talk about cults and I mentioned high control groups.
Define those for the listeners. What is a cult? What's the difference between a cult and a high control group? Are they the same thing?
[00:07:42] Speaker C: Well, a destructive cult by definition also is a high control group.
But let's be very focused here. There's an entire chapter in my book Cults Inside out, defining a destructive cult. There are three core characteristics that form the nucleus for virtually every definition of a destructive cult. They were first identified by a psychiatrist, Robert J. Lifton, in a paper published titled Cult Formation at Harvard University in the 80s.
The number one feature is a charismatic leader who becomes the defining element and driving force of the group and is an object of worship for the group members.
So that leader has authoritarian control, dictatorial control over the group with.
Without any meaningful accountability. So you have a Keith Ranieri, a Charlie Manson, a David.
[00:08:45] Speaker B: Well, in my day, excuse me, Rick Allen, but I was, when preparing for the show. I'm going to tell my age here, but the first ever cult that I can remember when I was a child and it terrified me, was Jim Jones. And it was at People's Temple.
Yeah, the guy on a Tragedy. And that's the first time I ever, like, was made aware of a cult.
[00:09:07] Speaker C: Yeah. Well, my work started in 1982, and Jim Jones, who was the leader of the People's Temple, which originated in California, and then he took about a thousand people to British Guyana and in the jungle he created a community, a compound that was called Jonestown. And when it was investigated by Congressman Leo J. Ryan and became scrutinized by people in the US who were worried about their loved ones that were living in this very isolated community, he decided to basically take his own life and take all of his followers with him. And so in November.
[00:09:55] Speaker B: But he killed those representatives also.
[00:09:58] Speaker C: Yes, he did. He assassinated Leo J. Ryan.
There were people that were shot by his security force that he had at the compound. And then they mixed what was later referred to as Kool Aid with cyanide. And the people in the compound poisoned themselves and their children.
Over 200 children died and about 1,000 people died. But since then, we've had just one cult tragedy after another. The most recent is a group called the Good News Gospel Church led by Paul McKenzie in Kenya. And they have unearthed over five, excuse me, over 400 bodies of people that starve themselves and their children to death in obedience to Paul McKenzie and his end Times vision of the world.
We also had a group in 2000 called the Movement for the Restoration of the Ten Commandments in Uganda, where over 700 people died under the leadership of Joseph Kibwiterre. And then in Japan, you might recall in, I think it was 1995, there was a group called Aum Shinrikyo, the Supreme Truth, led by Shoko Asahara. They gassed the Tokyo subway system.
Thousands of people were hospitalized, would later be convicted and sentenced to death and executed. So we've had many cult tragedies, but many people will look back and say, well, Jonestown was really the one that became the impetus behind, if you will, the anti cult movement in the United States. That is people that were devoted to exposing these groups and their leaders and at times testifying against them in court, as I have, and exposing them now online through databases and websites and so on. But let me get back to that definition for you.
So number one is the all powerful leader.
Number two is the leader uses coercive persuasion or what Lifton the psychiatrist that wrote the paper cult formation called thought reform, and that has often been called brainwashing, basically gaining undue influence over the people in the group. And then number three, using that undue influence to do harm to those people, to exploit them, to take advantage of them, which has varied by degree from group to group. So you have some groups that the leader just wants money, or the leader wants free labor to make money.
Then it escalates to sexual exploitation, physical abuse, medical neglect, child abuse. And then it can become criminal where it crosses the line from freedom of religion or freedom of expression to criminality. And then the law becomes involved. So that would be the real definition. And then a high control group could be a group, let's say, like Jehovah's Witnesses, where people are very controlled by an authoritarian power structure, but not one individual leader who becomes an object of worship. Though I would argue that Jehovah's Witnesses under Russell, their founder Charles Taze Russell, was in fact a personality driven cult in its early days. But now they have what's called the governing body.
But in my opinion, Jehovah's Witnesses continue to be a very authoritarian, very controlling group.
Notably, if people leave through disfellowshipping, they're shunned by their families, cut off.
Also, if people want a blood transfusion, they may not get one according to the rules of Jehovah's Witnesses. And so the courts have often intervened in particular with juveniles children to allow them to get a blood transfusion despite the parents wishes that they not receive it. So every year people die because of the control, the influence, I would argue undue influence of Jehovah's Witnesses.
[00:14:48] Speaker B: Wow. As I said, you know, in the introduction, this is fascinating but so unsettling and that's a good word to describe it. It just leaves you with a creepy feeling. You know, I've got lots of questions, I've taken notes while you were talking and then we've got several email questions. So let's take our first break and when we come back, one of those email questions is actually one of the questions I wrote down myself. So we'll be right back. You're listening to brain matters on 90.7 the capstone.
[00:15:26] Speaker C: Wvuafm Tuscaloosa.
[00:15:28] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling and no relationship is created between the show hosts and or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student please contact your respective counties crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
[00:16:07] Speaker B: Hey, you're back listening to brain matters on 90.7 the capstone. We are talking about the psychological aspects of cults tonight and my guest is Rick Allen Ross and. And he is just a veteran. I don't know, you know, plethora of knowledge for years a 30 plus I guess almost 40 years now actually.
[00:16:29] Speaker C: 40, 44.
[00:16:31] Speaker B: I'm terrible math. I didn't major math. Sorry. 44 has written the book. What's the title of your book again?
[00:16:38] Speaker C: Cults inside Cults Inside Out. How People get in and can get out.
[00:16:44] Speaker B: Wow.
And we've got several email questions but this is the One I had. And this person is asked almost the same question. Are there areas of the US where cult activity is more prevalent than in other areas of country?
[00:16:59] Speaker C: Yes, I think that it's fair to say that where there are. Where there are large populations, metro, metroplex areas like Los Angeles, New York, you know, and of course, there are also areas that seem to attract cults because of their affluence.
For example, Boulder, Colorado, or Sedona, Arizona, or an area where there are a lot of college students.
That can also be the reason that a group is very focused on a particular area.
But in my experience, they're all over the country, everywhere.
I've testified as an expert in 13 states, and there's no state that I haven't worked in, with one exception. I have yet to work in Wyoming.
I've worked.
There are not a lot of people in Wyoming.
There have been cults in Wyoming, but I have never worked in Wyoming.
But I think that many of us want to think that that cults are something that happens to somebody else, that it couldn't happen to me.
It only happens to people who are really kind of weird and strange.
Maybe they're emotionally or psychologically damaged.
And in my experience, that is not true.
I have worked with people from every Ivy League school in the country.
One man I worked with unsuccessfully had an MBA from Wharton and was an investment banker. And I. I couldn't persuade him that a group that would later be widely publicized as a cult was a cult and that he should leave and he sacrificed his marriage and his family rather than leave this group. I have deprogrammed, as they say, five medical doctors. One was an orthopedic surgeon, another was an anesthesiologist. So this could happen to anyone, no matter what their intelligence, no matter what their education, their background.
What I do see as a consistent narrative is that cults find success with people who are going through a difficult time.
And we all go through difficult times.
[00:19:43] Speaker B: Vulnerability.
[00:19:44] Speaker C: Vulnerability. Right, vulnerability. You're going through a divorce, you're not doing well in school, you think you're going to flunk out.
You lost a friend, you lost a romantic interest, a girlfriend, a boyfriend. You're depressed, you're feeling bad about yourself, and at that point, somebody comes along and it could be someone that you know, someone that you trust, who's involved in some group that you don't really know what that group is all about. And in a very innocent seeming way, say to you, hey, I know you're not feeling well about this, that or the other and this group, I think, could help. We're having a hayride.
[00:20:31] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:20:32] Speaker C: We're having a volleyball game. We have.
You don't even have to bring anything except a bag of chips. And.
And. And the group seems benign. The person seems trustworthy. And you go to initial meeting, and you really don't know what you're getting into.
[00:20:55] Speaker B: Do people know they're being manipulated or do they feel like it's normal, you know, from the inside?
[00:21:01] Speaker C: They definitely feel it's normal from the inside.
And let's keep something in mind.
Groups socially isolate people.
So one of the hallmarks of a destructive cult is social isolation.
So they kind of encapsulate you. They. You become embedded in the group, and your ability to test reality is limited. And that's why Jim Jones took these people to a compound in Guyana.
[00:21:33] Speaker B: To isolate them.
[00:21:34] Speaker C: Yeah, to isolate them from their family, from their friends. And.
And if you're in a group where you're feeling isolated, cut off, that is a big warning sign that maybe there's something wrong with this group. Because the goal of that social isolation is that the only people you're going to test reality with are the people around you who are other group members.
[00:22:01] Speaker B: No, you have no perspective at all.
[00:22:04] Speaker C: They just reinforce the group. Think so? People will say to me, well, why don't they think it's crazy? How could they follow Jim Jones and be in the middle of nowhere or follow David Koresh outside of Waco, Texas?
And the answer is, because they became very isolated.
There were rules in the group.
They were not allowed to talk to their family, their old friends.
They were cut off.
And the more.
The more extreme the group, the more extreme the isolation, because that's what the leader does in order to cut you off from accurate feedback. Let me ask you, able to determine that something is wrong.
[00:22:51] Speaker B: What do you know about Sun Young Moon?
[00:22:53] Speaker C: Oh, man.
[00:22:54] Speaker B: Well, first of all, I'll tell you. I'll tell you how I know about him.
And you. I want you to elaborate, but before I met my husband, and he talks about this still to this day at our student center here on campus, he was approached by the Moonies. The Moonies is what they were called.
And I don't know what happened. I mean, he basically cut them off. He saw them coming. He knew what was going on. But explain who Sun Young Moon is. And.
[00:23:24] Speaker C: Well, Mooney Sun Moon was. He's dead now. He lived to be 90 something.
He died in Korea. He was from South Korea. There are a number of cults that are from South Korea. He led a group called the Unification Church. He claimed to be the Messiah. He said that Jesus couldn't get the job done and that he was going to fulfill messianic prophecy. And. And of course, this is what you find in group after group that it. That have been called cults. The leader is the necessary ingredient for salvation. The leader is absolutely the only one who can help you.
Every other group, be it Christian, whatever is, is not equal to this one group that has all the answers and leader that has all the answers. And what Moon did was he came to the US and he started recruiting on college campuses. He eventually would recruit thousands of people. And in fact, the Unification Church would grow to be one of the largest cults in the world, with members in Japan and globally. And it would become an incredibly lucrative church where the Moon family became very rich. At the time of his death, Moon was worth over a billion dollars.
And at one time, he controlled one third of the American fishing fleet in
[00:24:59] Speaker B: Bayou La Batre, Alabama.
[00:25:01] Speaker C: Yeah. And he was also controlling about 50% of the wholesale sushi market.
The Moon family today is still very rich.
One of his sons heads a group in Pennsylvania.
His other son and daughter are controlling the main Unification Church.
His widow is now in detention.
She may be in the hospital right now, but she's been facing a legal battle in South Korea because of bribery charges that the Unification Church tried to have influence with politicians by, you know, giving them expensive gifts, money.
And she was being held in jail, but she's quite elderly, and she's been in and out of the hospital, released from detention. And the Unification Church also lost its nonprofit religious status in Japan.
[00:26:03] Speaker B: Oh, wow.
[00:26:04] Speaker C: And you. You might recall the Prime Minister Abe of Japan, who was assassinated.
[00:26:10] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:26:10] Speaker C: He was shot dead by a son of a devoted Unification Church mother who blew the family's money on the Unification Church.
Now they're being required in Japan to make restitution to many of the families that they took advantage of and exploited financially.
[00:26:34] Speaker B: What a mess. Yes.
[00:26:35] Speaker C: But bringing it around to the college campus, the Moonies, as they were known, or the Unification Church, had hundreds of front organizational names.
So they would put out one of those names which would not even sound religious. You would think that they were a cultural organization or an artist commune or whatever. And in fact, that was a front name that they would use to try to pull you into the Unification Church. And I think they still recruit on college campus.
[00:27:13] Speaker B: Well, and that was. That's another email question. And we'll go to a break in just a minute, Catherine. But to what extent, this person asked, to what extent are college campuses being utilized as venues for cult recruitment?
[00:27:29] Speaker C: Well, they are still. There are many groups that are recruiting on college campuses. One that's notorious was founded by a man by the name of Kip McKeon.
Kip McKean created a group that became known as the International Church of Christ.
But it was not in any official way or connected to the Independent Churches of Christ or the United Church of Christ or the Disciples of Christ. But by using that name, many times, people would think that they were a mainstream church, when in fact, they believed that they were the only true church and that McKean occupied this singular role as kind of an apostle, equal, they would say, to the Apostle Paul.
And so that is one group that recruited on campuses all across the U.S. there's also another group called the Mission Society of the Church of God.
Excuse me, The Mission Society Church of God, which is another South Korean group which came out of Seoul and is recruiting on college campuses. In fact, they're recruiting at Costco and at malls.
[00:28:51] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh.
[00:28:52] Speaker C: And they follow a woman who claims to be God.
They call her Mother God. Excuse me, let me get that name right. The World Mission Society, Church of God.
And this group is really pernicious. And I've dealt with them. I've done interventions to get people out. In fact, I've done interventions to get people out of most of the groups that I'll mention.
And so there are these groups that are recruiting on college campuses, many that are flying under the radar of college deans, of campus authorities. And what people should understand is that when you're approached by a group, any group on college campus, you want to find out more about them. Do research, dig in, find out who is the leader of this group. Why are they on my campus?
What are they really all about?
Because you can find that information most often online.
And if you find derogatory, negative information about the group, beware, Beware. Because where there's smoke, there's usually fire.
[00:30:07] Speaker B: There is. Let's take our second break, and when we come back, I've got another question from another listener, if you'll. And I want to ask you specifically about a city that I'm interested in. Did that. I've had a student recently talk about a family member who has moved there.
And I just put this together because I didn't realize, I didn't put it together that you were coming on and I could ask you this. So I'm going to ask you that when we come back. I'll leave you with that little nugget. We'll be right back. You're listening to brain matters on 90.7, the capstone,
[00:30:49] Speaker C: Wvuafm Tuscaloosa.
[00:30:52] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling and no relationship is created between the show host or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective counties crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
[00:31:30] Speaker B: Hey, you're back listening to brain matters on 90.7, the Capstone and BJ Gunther. And before I forget, if you are listening and have any upcoming show topics that you want us to cover, email those to me at brain mattersradiovuafm.edu. and of course, I'll consider using your show topic. We're talking tonight about the psychological aspects of cults. And my guest is Rick Allen Ross. And Rick Allen is the CEO and founding executive director of Cult Education Institute. He's also written Cults Inside out is his book. And it's just. I mean, I don't know how you can. I mean, how many books have you written?
[00:32:10] Speaker C: 2.
One is to come out in, in around Christmas.
[00:32:16] Speaker B: Oh, goody.
[00:32:17] Speaker C: My second book. So I've, I've written papers, articles, but only two books. Well, but, but Cults Inside out is a very thick book.
[00:32:30] Speaker B: It would have to be. That's why I asked how many. Okay, so I mentioned before the break about a student of mine whose sister has recently moved to Moscow, Idaho.
Do you know of any cults in that area?
[00:32:43] Speaker C: I have worked in Idaho. There are certainly cults in Idaho, but who knows?
[00:32:49] Speaker B: Okay, I'm just out there for you.
[00:32:52] Speaker C: Not, not anything in particular regarding Moscow, Idaho, but Idaho certainly has cults, as does virtually every state. Yeah, nobody's immune really, but I would say California has probably because of the dense population being the most populated state and also all the money in Los Angeles.
Cult leaders are very preoccupied most often with making. Making money.
[00:33:27] Speaker B: How many. This is the email question. How many estimated religious. Religious cults are there in the US Currently?
[00:33:37] Speaker C: The. The last estimate, which is a few years old, was about 10,000.
And this was compiled through complaints and inquiries by people at the International Cultic Studies Association.
So I think their president at the time commented that they, they, at one point they had. They had 5,000 identified groups, but then it exceeded that and came to, I think, a level of about 10,000.
[00:34:13] Speaker B: How can. Go ahead. I'm sorry.
[00:34:15] Speaker C: I mean, it's a business. I mean, you know, cult leaders are often quite wealthy. They make a lot of money running a group. And let me be specific here. A lot of these groups are not religious, they're not spiritual.
They can be based, for example, on sex.
There's a woman, Nicole Deion, who now is sentenced to nine years in prison from a group called One Taste that was. She was criminally prosecuted in New York.
The group did seminars based on better orgasms.
[00:34:57] Speaker B: Oh, wow.
[00:34:58] Speaker C: And this was their supposed mission, was to give people better orgasms and in particular women.
And. And it ended up being called a cult. And she was prosecuted for sex trafficking, labor trafficking and so on. And she's now sentenced to nine years in prison. There have been groups based on martial arts, based on politics, based on multi level.
Yeah, you know, what you look for is the leader.
Coercive persuasion. Three things you mentioned harm being done. Because you might have a group that has a charismatic leader who has control and is somewhat authoritarian. And that leader relies on very intense indoctrination where people adopt his philosophy.
But then does the leader hurt the people in the group?
I've dealt with groups over the years that are relatively benign.
For example, Taylor Swift and the Swifties.
I mean, you may not like them, but I don't think Taylor Swift is going to mix up a batch of Kool Aid with cyanide.
[00:36:22] Speaker B: I hope not.
[00:36:23] Speaker C: And the Swifties are devoted to her. They seem to worship her and go to her concerts.
Maybe you could say, well, Taylor Swift certainly is into merchandising and making money from her cult like following.
But just the fact that there is a charismatic leader and that that leader has a great influence over his or her followers does not necessarily mean it's a destructive cult.
[00:36:53] Speaker B: How does you know? Here's the big question, the hard question.
How does a family member approach a loved one, you know, who may be in a cult without pushing them further away?
[00:37:08] Speaker C: You must be careful.
You need to be counterintuitive.
So what that means is don't do what's expected.
Many families become very alarmed. They find information about the group saying it's a destructive cult, and they confront their family member and say, you're in a cult, you're in a cult. You're brainwashed. And that's exactly the opposite of what you should do. What you should do is keep your negative critique to yourself and Instead, maintain communication, be very loving.
Say, you know, I'm here for you.
Tell me about the group.
What. What excites you about it? What. What draws your interest?
You want to keep the lines of communication open, and you want to be careful, careful to filter out negative comments, because very likely that will be repeated to people in the group. And leaders in the group could then say, well, cut your family off. They're negative. They're. They're holding you back from your mission.
So you need to be very careful.
Filter what you say, gather information through discussion, be a good listener, and make sure that they know that you're there for them.
So that if things don't work out, which they most often don't, and people become disenchanted, confused, and then they turn to someone they care about and that they trust, and that could be you, the family member who has never made it difficult for them to approach you. Don't make them feel that they have to eat humble pie in order to sit down and discuss their concerns with you. And then again, be a listener, don't be negative and make them feel like you really do have unconditional love for them.
Which is what? The group has lied to them that they have that kind of love, when in fact it's highly conditional.
[00:39:25] Speaker B: Are there warning signs that people may miss, you know, when first encountering a group? I guess.
[00:39:33] Speaker C: Well, I mean, you need to ask yourself, what's this group all about?
Is it personality driven?
Is there an absolute totalitarian leader?
How transparent is that leader regarding finances, the way this group is being run? Does that leader accept criticism?
Does that leader admit when he or she is wrong about something? Or is everyone who raises a doubt or a question indicted and stigmatized by the group? How does the group regard people that have left? Do they still get together with them? Do they still speak fondly of them? Or do they again, cast dispersions upon them, say, oh, they're terrible, and the message is, there is no legitimate reason to leave this group.
Well, there is a legitimate reason to leave any group.
[00:40:31] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:40:32] Speaker C: I mean, whatever it may be. So when you see these kind of symptoms or these warning signs in a group, beware, beware. And is the group influencing you to become increasingly isolated?
Are they making excessive demands on you that tend to pull you into the group, and you become totally preoccupied with the group? Are you losing contact with friends and family because of the demands of the group?
So if these things are happening, take a break, take a deep breath, take a break, unplug and think about it. And Talk to people outside of the group and bounce things off of them and try to get accurate feedback from people that don't have any skin in the game, because that's really important.
[00:41:31] Speaker B: Have you ever felt in danger?
[00:41:34] Speaker C: Oh, absolutely. I've been under the protection of the FBI, Homeland Security, the Justice Department. My life's been threatened.
I've been under surveillance by groups. This is a matter of court record. I mean, it's, you know, this is scary.
[00:41:55] Speaker B: I mean, it's really serious and scary. And, you know, I don't know if people, I don't know how many people do the work like you do, but that's one thing you'd have to consider going into this field.
[00:42:09] Speaker C: Well, I think that if you are successful, and that is that you expose groups, leaders, become concerned they're facing criminal indictment, you know, and I've been involved in, in, in the criminal indictment of, of cult leaders.
So they, they don't like you. They hold you accountable. They say, if it wasn't for him, maybe I wouldn't have all, all this trouble in my life. And so they blame you and they come after you. In a way, it's kind of flattering because you feel that it's kind of an endorsement that you're, you're, you've been effective.
[00:42:52] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:42:52] Speaker C: But on the other hand, when you have family and, and, and you, of course, are concerned about your own well being, you, you don't want to be threatened like that. No one does. But I've never let it keep me from continuing my work.
[00:43:07] Speaker B: You mentioned a minute ago, I think you mentioned, and I don't really know how to word this, but how, how successful is it to get out of a cult? As somebody's asked another email question that's basically along the lines of when people finally break away from cults, are they ever for what they were as a cult? And do people like. What are the percentage of people who get out of cults?
[00:43:33] Speaker C: Well, I think it's pretty high. I think there's a very substantial amount of people that will stay in for many years but eventually will leave because of something that shocked them, that caused them concern that they saw. Or maybe they're just worn out and, and feel exhausted and they, they want to walk away.
And the thing to keep in mind is don't be ashamed because many people will feel, well, how I'm turning my back on God, I'm leaving the true cause I'm a loser.
Why couldn't I stay? I should have stayed. And of course the people in the Group are going to reinforce that perception. They're going to tell you, yeah, you're wrong, you shouldn't leave, you're bad for leaving. And so what do you need to do? You need to give yourself space, give yourself time to recover.
And you probably need to build a firewall between you and the group. That is give yourself a break. Don't talk to current members, don't talk to friends that are sympathetic to the group for a while to give yourself space, breathing space. And then read the literature about cults.
Of course I'm going to say read my book. But there are other books.
[00:45:00] Speaker B: You know, it's a very thick book by the way,
[00:45:06] Speaker C: with an 18 page bibliography and many footnotes that help you to drill down. But, but my point is educate yourself. What is a cult? How do they operate? How did that parallel, how does that parallel with the group that I was in?
What can I see through that lens in my own group that I just left? And then there are mental health professionals. I have a
[email protected] of recovery counseling professionals that have experience helping former cult members. Because you don't want to go to somebody who's never dealt with a, an ex cult member.
[00:45:50] Speaker B: No, they need to be educated. Yeah.
[00:45:53] Speaker C: They're likely not to understand what you're going through.
So I would say if you feel that you need counseling, you're going through depression, you're feeling very negative about yourself, you're feeling emotionally distraught, get counseling.
But the key, the first step is educate yourself.
And then if you need counseling, find the right counseling professional who has the necessary experience to help you.
[00:46:25] Speaker B: That's right. Okay, here's the big question.
What's the most surprising case you've encountered in your work?
I mean, you've mentioned some and the ones you've mentioned are pretty surprising. But for you personally, can you talk about it?
[00:46:43] Speaker C: Rick Allen I think for me personally, one case was very intriguing to me which was a clinical psychologist who was in an abusive, who was in an abusive, controlling relationship.
And she was married. Her husband beat her, he manipulated her, he made her feel ashamed of her body, ashamed of herself.
She would run away periodically because she was fleeing for her physical as well as her psychological and emotional well being. And she would go to her family as a refuge, her parents home in Napa, California.
And they called me at one point and said, please help us because we don't want her to go back this time that this had happened repeatedly. And they convinced her to talk with me. And the end result was that she did get a divorce, separate from this abusive, controlling husband and get on with her life.
But it surprised me because she was a very beautiful woman and this man had convinced her that she was ugly, that she was overweight, and she was not.
Also, I was taken aback because she understood psychological manipulation, but she was unsure of what he was doing, and we had to talk that through.
And I remember her calling me a couple of times after she had left the marriage and had moved on. And she called me and she said, rick, do you think that I'll ever find someone to love me like that again?
Oh, no, because this is one of the things that abusive controlling partners tell you.
[00:48:53] Speaker B: Just saying that. Yeah.
[00:48:54] Speaker C: No one else but me could love you like this. Only I will love you. And I told her, I said, you are a clinical psychologist. You have a PhD in psychology.
You're highly accomplished, you're board licensed in the state of California.
You, you're, you're a lovely woman. You have really good parents who love and support you. Of course you're going to find someone, someone else. And that's part of the programming that you need to deal with that. This is not, this is the way that he programmed you to think under his influence.
And that's what he did to her.
And I found it shocking because she was so accomplished. She was such a warm person and just, you know, I remember at one point she told me about how self conscious she was, that she was overweight, that she was not an attractive woman. And yet we went out one evening in Napa to a place that her parents asked that we go to for dinner. And I said to her, why are all the men looking at you if you're so ugly?
I mean, I don't mean to objectify you, but I want you to get in touch with the fact that what your husband is telling you is a lie, you know, and it empowers him, it helps him to control you, but it's not real. And the proof of it is here with your own eyes. And she said, oh, the men are looking at me.
And I said, yes, because you're a very beautiful woman. Why wouldn't they look at you?
So those kind of situations often kind of shock me.
And the man who was an MBA from Wharton, who had an undergraduate degree from Penn, intelligent, incredibly intelligent, I would call him a genius. This guy made a staggering fortune as an investment banker, and yet he could not see through this cult.
He just could not see through it. And he had been in it for many years.
And his wife did not understand that he wasn't a cult because the group was very secretive. And it was years into the marriage, after two kids, oh, my God. That she realized, my husband's in a cult. And it was a very weird situation to sit with this guy who was a multimillionaire many times over and. And very intelligent, very sophisticated, very well spoken, but very, in my opinion, brainwashed.
[00:51:56] Speaker B: Brainwashed. Simply brainwashed. What? For listeners, what resources can you give us website besides your books?
[00:52:05] Speaker C: I would say go to culteducation.com and there's also a links page through that website database to many, many resources in the US and internationally. There's also in a books section that's kind of a virtual library that is linked to Amazon.com, where people can get all kinds of books on the subject about individual groups and so on. And what the database is is there are hundreds of subsections devoted to different groups. For example, there's a huge subsection on Scientology.
There's an enormous subsection on the Unification Church, on Jonestown, on Charles Manson, on the World Mission Society, Church of God, on the International Church of Christ. All of the groups we've mentioned and many more have their own subsections in the database with historical reports, court documents, personal testimonials that are related to that group. So all of that is archived online and it's free.
You don't have to pay anything.
[00:53:23] Speaker B: This is amazing. And it's gone. I say this every week, but this truly has gone by so fast this whole hour.
And I mean, we need to have a part two.
We do.
[00:53:34] Speaker C: This is if you're. If you're up.
[00:53:38] Speaker B: Thank you so much for being on the show. This is fantastic, and I just appreciate it. I didn't even get to most of my questions because we just go down a rabbit hole, you know, when we start talking about one. One question leads to many in my brain.
So thank you again for being on the show. You sound like a very, very busy person, so it means a lot.
[00:54:00] Speaker C: Well, thank you for having me on.
[00:54:02] Speaker B: If you'll stay on the line, I've got a question for you after we close, but let me make a few announcements. Don't forget, our shows are recorded and podcasted on Apple Podcast, Spotify, Audioboom, and Voices UA Edu. Just type in Brain Matters and you'll find some of our past shows. There's also a link to Voices UA Edu on the Counseling Center's website at Counseling ua. Eduardo, I'd like to thank a few people who've made the show possible. Our executive director here at the counseling center, Dr. Greg Vanderwaal my producer and my colleague Kathryn Howell, my colleagues here at the Counseling center and Gareth Garner, who edits our shows every week. Of course, the WBUA staff and my guest tonight, Rick Allen Ross. Join us next week. Our topic next week is going to be about red light therapy. It's kind of the chic thing now, but there's a lot of research about how medically and scientifically it's beneficial for people. So I'm excited about that topic. Thanks again for listening. We'll see you here next week and good night.
[00:55:09] Speaker A: This show was not intended as a substitute for professional counseling. Further, the views, opinions and conclusions expressed by the show hosts or their guests are their own and not necessarily those of the University of Alabama, its officers or trustees. Any views, opinions or conclusions shared on the show do not create a relationship between the host or any guest and any listener, and such a relationship should never be inferred. If you feel you're in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, Please contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective counties crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
