Brain Matters S13.E04: Career Development and Mental Health

[00:00:00] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling and no relationship is created between the show host or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective counties crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room. [00:00:41] Speaker B: It's six o' clock in time again for Brain Matters, the official radio show of the UA Counseling Center. We are broadcasting from the campus of the University of Alabama. Good evening. My name is Dr. BJ Gunther and I'm the host of the show along with my colleague and producer Kathryn Howell who is out sick tonight. Like a lot of people in Alabama right now, but in case you don't know, this show is about mental and physical health issues that affect college students and in particular UA students. So you can listen to us each Tuesday night at 6pm on 90.7 FM or you can go online listen at WVUAFM UA edu or you can download your favorite app, I like MyTuner radio app and just type in WVUAFM 90.7. And don't forget we're probably midway through this semester. We only do shows in the fall and the spring semesters. We we don't do any shows in the summer. So if you have any ideas for show topics regarding college mental health, physical or mental health, email those to me @brainmattersradiovuafmuaedu and of course I'll consider using some of your show topic ideas. I feel like we've covered so many topics, but tonight I don't think I've actually covered this topic. We've talked a little bit about careers and choices in major, but tonight we're talking about the powerful connection between career development and mental health. Our work shapes so much of our identity, purpose and overall well being and when we feel stuck or uncertain professionally, it can really impact our emotional health. I'm joined tonight by Dr. Seth Hayden. He's Associate professor of Counseling and Clinical Mental Health Program Coordinator at Wake Forest University. Hopefully we'll discuss how career challenges affect mental health and what individuals and counselors can do to navigate those transitions more effectively. Dr. Hayden, thank you you for being on the show. [00:02:35] Speaker C: Thank you so much. It's great to be with you. I really appreciate the opportunity to talk with you. [00:02:38] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean that when I say that I don't know what percentage of sessions I talk to students about their careers and how worried they are, how stressful it is, not just choosing a major, but sticking with that major, becoming disillusioned with their major sometimes when they feel like it's too late to change in their academic career, and also getting really close to graduation. I'm seeing more students coming in now, really worried about finding jobs, too, with their career choice. Before we start, tell the listeners a little bit more about yourself and your credentials and why you're interested in this topic. [00:03:20] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. And I think you brought forward some really important considerations and certainly things that I'm encountering myself in terms of students I work with and just people in general. It's a very uncertain time. So I am an associate professor of counseling at Wake Forest University in Winston Salem, North Carolina. I'm also a licensed clinical mental health counselor. So I maintain that credential. And I'm really interested in the intersection of career development and mental health. And that comes from a couple of different things. First of all, I had my own journey. So I was a wandering soul trying to find my place in the world. And as I started to think about counseling as a path for me, I started wishing I'd have had somebody who would talk with me about these things in a way that would be helpful. But then also in my own clinical training, at various times when I provided services, I kept seeing this connection show up. I kept seeing how people were talking about career, talking about mental health, and how those things impact each other. And so I decided this is something I really want to focus on, both in my clinical work, but also in my scholarly work. Because I think there's. If you think about career and work, there's really nothing else in life we spend more time doing than that. I mean, just from a pure time element. And so. So that, to me, is profound. That's, like, significant to think about that. And so if we're doing work, if we're preparing to do work, if we're trying to. To set ourselves up for success going forward, so much time and energy is invested in it. And so it's really a central feature of the human experience. And so with that in mind, I think it's important that we have an understanding of that. And then as a counselor and also a counselor educator, we prepare people to effectively address that connection between career and mental health. [00:05:17] Speaker B: You know, I was just talking to somebody today about my generation. We grew up. I grew up thinking, okay, you pick your. You pick your career, you pick your major. You stick with it till you retire. This generation does not really think like that. And, you know, I talk a lot about that in sessions. I think some of them feel that pressure that, oh, my gosh, I'm gonna have to pick this, and I'm gonna be working 8 to 5. And they just, you know, they're just not used to that thinking. What do you tell students that come to do? You have students who come to you and talk about this kind of stuff, Like, I do. [00:05:54] Speaker C: I do. So my role at Wake Forest is that as a faculty member. And so. But I also mentor our counsel who are entering into the field. And so one of the things with counseling that I'll get a sense of is that there is this thought that I'm locking myself into the rest of my life by the next job that I take. And so I talk with them often about the diversity of the profession, different ways in which you can be a counselor, different places you can work. But I've also encountered. I used to be a program director at a university career center, and so I provided direct services to university students. And definitely, it's a decision that has a lot of weight. It feels like it's heavy. It's a lot to think about, both choosing a major that was always like, a big one. Whenever the date was where you had to pick, we would just get flooded with people who came in trying to figure out, what am I going to major in? And a lot of what would go along with that is my major equals my career. And so that was, you know, again, that had a lot of weight to it. But then, certainly, as people were transitioning out of the university, like, what's the landscape for me? What kind of prospects do I have? And so for me, one of the things that I found in relation to the path of career and work is that what we suspect things are going to be isn't always what they actually are. And so what I encourage students to do is to get information, to make informed decisions, and to talk to people who are actually doing the work, because things will surprise you. So I remember one time in particular when I was in my role as a program director at a university career center. We had some employers who came to our center, and we were talking with them. And one was an executive at a bank, a pretty large bank, too. And so in talking with this executive, I was curious about this executive's major. And so what I expected was accounting finance. And it was not. It was history. It was. It was history. And. And so I do think that not that there aren't certain careers that do have a very linear path, because there are. I mean, if you're going to be an engineer, you got to major in engineering. I mean, that's just. There's no if, ands or buts around that. Unless there's something I don't know about. But I anticipate that that's how that works. But there are. In other careers, there's often significant diversity of what your college preparation looks like in order for you to be able to do that. And so I just encourage people to get information. Get information, obviously online, but you can also talk to people, do what we call informational interviews. So find someone who's in a career that you're interested in. You can look at your own social network, but you can also get on things like LinkedIn and start to do some research and then see if they'd be willing to talk with you and just have some questions for them. Spend about 30 minutes. [00:09:00] Speaker B: Most people are. They're scared. Students are really scared that they're going to be bothering somebody. I think it flatters somebody to ask about their job, and I think it tickles them to really talk about themselves, let's face it, you know. [00:09:15] Speaker C: Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I've. I've done that in my own life, and I've talked with other people who have done it, and I have yet to find an instance where someone was met with a hard no. But even if you are, even if people are like, I'm sorry, I can't help you at this point, the benefit of that, I think, outweighs the discomfort of trying to find someone to do that. One of the things that we had in my previous institution is we actually had a career class as an undergraduate elective, and I'm not sure at the University of Alabama if you have that, but that was one of the assignments for the class was this information interview. And so I do think there are some ways to do that. You can go to university career center. There's often people who have indicated their willingness to do that. So you don't just have to do cold calls. You can also visit the career center and say, you know, I'd like to learn more about this particular profession. Do you have anybody who has indicated they'd like to mentor somebody or that they're willing to do that, and then they can give you that information for that person? So that's already been set up and situated to where you'll be able to do that? [00:10:23] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a good idea. That would be something I could, I could even talk to my students about, you know. Well, I recommend they go to the career center anyway, but I think they just don't know a lot of the services that are provided, you know, until they actually take that step. And if they're having some, like, social anxiety or just adjustment issues, it's hard for them to take that step sometimes. You know, I think back in the fall, I had the vice provost of Stanford University on, and he had written a book. And I remember him talking about this. And I want to say, I don't want to misquote him, but I want to say he said it was something like 70%. It was a high number because it surprised me of people who graduate don't use the degree they graduate with for their career. Just to your point. [00:11:14] Speaker C: Sure. Yeah. And I do think there's a couple different things that align with that that's important to consider because I. I guess one of the things that I have concern about is that some people will critique that and say, well, then there's an issue with the process. Maybe there is. I'm not discounting that. There's the potential for us to help people make that informed decision about what your major and what are some options with that. But I also think there's another element of that, which is that in college you're learning ways of thinking, you're learning various skills that are broadly applicable, like I think, and, and oftentimes when I'm working with people around their resume and how it is that they're applying for jobs, employers really are looking for skills. What skills do you possess that are going to benefit our organization? [00:12:09] Speaker B: Yes. [00:12:10] Speaker C: And students aren't always fully aware of the skills that they're accumulating while they're in college. And so various projects that they're involved in, various extracurriculars that they participate in. You're developing a skill set. And then the hope is that you can effectively communicate that to potential employers in a way that's going to align with the needs of the organization. And so I think that's a lot of my work as the counselor is to talk with people about what are your interest, value, skills, what are some things that you're thinking about as you're moving forward? And then let's talk about what you have done. And then how can you market that to people out in the world of work so that they understand how valuable you are and what is that you have to offer them? [00:12:58] Speaker B: And you, you end up enjoying your job too. [00:13:01] Speaker C: Sure. [00:13:01] Speaker B: You know, that's a. [00:13:02] Speaker C: That's right. [00:13:02] Speaker B: Let's take our first break, and then when we come back, I've got some email questions for you. Just kind of spontaneously. And then I've got another question about the skill set, so don't let me forget. We'll be right back. You're listening to brain matters on 90.7 the capstone. [00:13:27] Speaker C: Wvuafm Tuscaloosa. [00:13:30] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling, and no relationship is created between the show hosts or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective counties crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency. [00:14:07] Speaker B: Hey, you're back listening to brain matters on 90.7 the Capstone. I'm BJ Gunther. We're talking tonight about career development and mental health, and my guest is Dr. Seth Hayden. Dr. Hayden is an associate professor of counseling and clinical mental health program coordinator at Wake Forest University. And we were just talking about knowing what your skills are so that you can market yourself better. Do counsel. Do career centers help you identify a list of your skill set? [00:14:40] Speaker C: I think so, yes. I think often when people go to a career center, one of the things that can happen is that you can start to look at again, what activities you've been involved in, what kind of things have you done, and then how does that translate to a skill, and then how are those skills transferable? So one of the things that I've done in the past is I've actually had a list of transferable skills when I worked in a university career center. And I've shared that with students, and we've gone over that and we've discussed it. And so, you know, one of the things that comes to mind is like group projects. Like oftentimes in an academic setting, people are tasked with doing a group project. People have different feelings about group projects. Some love them, some can't stand them. [00:15:28] Speaker B: Most hate them. [00:15:29] Speaker C: Sure. That being said, I think often we just focus on the product and we don't think about the process. [00:15:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:37] Speaker C: And so I think what I would offer people to consider is that think about what you did to get to that final product. And so with a group project, there's collaborate, collaboration with others. [00:15:51] Speaker B: Yes. [00:15:51] Speaker C: At times there may be leadership that's required in order to get it done. There's collecting information, there's analysis, compromise, those kinds of things. And again, employers are really looking for skills that are going to benefit the organization, at least in my view, and in conversation with employers. And so as you think about your experience, identifying those things, and I think someone at a career center has some capability to help people with that, to be able to analyze your experience and then think about how does it relate to what might be transferable out in the world of work. [00:16:29] Speaker B: Yeah, because I think a lot of students when they get here or they used to feel like this, I don't know if that's changing. They feel like college. And for some it does make, they do or they are able to make networking connections. But for some that I talk to this time of year when they're about to graduate, they, some are disillusioned because they feel like they were going to get more help finding a job, not realizing it's really all on you. [00:17:02] Speaker C: Yeah, in some ways it is. Yes. I do think that, I do think that there are services designed to assist you. And part of it is you have to avail yourself of those services. And I know at a large institution it can be hard to find the access point, like where do I find what I need in order to get what I'm looking for? And so that can be a challenge. And I want to acknowledge that. I also think that it's a stress inducing experience as well. And so people have a different response to the anxiety and stress that comes with a significant life decision. I mean, it's a big deal. It's a big deal to choose to go to the University of Alabama. It's a big deal to choose what you're going to major in. It's a big deal to choose what am I going to do after. And so that stress and that anxiety can create difficulties for people to navigate that. And it's like, okay, where do I go to talk to somebody about this? Do I go to the career center? Do I go to the counseling center? How do those things like impact me? Do I talk to my family? There's just, it can create difficulty for somebody as they're moving forward. [00:18:19] Speaker B: Speaking of family, before we get off that, do you have students. I know you're in a different capacity than I am as far as clinical versus academic. But do you have students who talk to you about their family or their parents putting any pressure on them to, to choose a certain major? [00:18:42] Speaker C: That certainly happens, no question. And I think that for me, when I think about that, I try to get as much information as I can about the. The story. Where is that coming from? How is this affecting somebody? What is. Where does that leave them? I also think there are cultural elements to that. So I do think that there are different at times, cultural expectations of the familial involvement in that decision that I need to have awareness of before I determine if this is, you know, we should go this way or that way as we move forward. But I do think that there are times, certainly, where families will have very strong opinions about the direction that people should go. And when that opinion does not align with the perspective of the individual making a decision, there can be some significant tension. Yeah, exactly. [00:19:37] Speaker B: And you do. [00:19:39] Speaker C: Yes, absolutely. And so. And so that's another layer of potential tension and difficulty that we could put on top of trying to move forward. And so I think, for me, again, I just get curious, like, tell me. I want to know as much as I can. Tell me as much as you can about what's going on. Tell me about your family involvement. How do you feel about that? [00:20:00] Speaker B: And let's try to figure out what [00:20:01] Speaker C: does that mean for you? Yeah, let's see what we can do with that information. [00:20:04] Speaker B: I bet when students come and talk to you, it's a relief, you know, to hear you be supportive for them and somebody, an adult that they can talk to, that's not really in a clinical setting. You know, like, when they do come to talk to me, sometimes they point blank tell me, oh, my gosh, my dad wants me to be an electrical engineer, and I made a D in math this semester. You know, the reality bites. [00:20:29] Speaker C: So. Yeah, and I think it works in different ways, for sure. I mean, I think there are times where people's own goals need to shift as well. So you've got the familial pressure. But there are times where people might be strongly invested in a particular career. One that comes up at times is like, I want to be a physician, and I'm struggling in organic chemistry. [00:20:52] Speaker B: Yes. [00:20:52] Speaker C: Like, that's like, That's a tough thing to. To reconcile. Not that, you know, you. There's a lot of different pathways to being a physician, but that is a little bit of, like, important, you know, step in that direction. And so I guess for me, it's like, what is it that you are interested in? And whether it be being a physician or helping your family. Yeah. What did your family want you to do? Where does that come from? Like, and so one of the things with families is I'll talk with them about having a conversation with them, if appropriate about that, is like, what is it that you sense that they are hoping for you? What is it that you're looking for? And then what would it be like to have a conversation to help them understand where you're coming from in terms of what you're looking at and then also informing them of what things may look like for you going forward? Because I think there's a lot of misunderstanding around career and work and decision making about what careers really look like, what does it involve to get there? And so I think when you have all of that, it creates a complicated situation for people to work through. And so for me it's how do we make it more simple? How do we uncomplicate the situation to where we have some degree of clarity, recognizing there's still going to be some difficulties ahead, whether it be having the conversation with family, whether it be moving in a different direction. I'm going to change majors or I'm going to get into this different kind of thing than I anticipated doing. And I don't have full awareness of that. So how do we move forward in a way that's going to be useful? And for me, with career decisions, my aim is as someone who supports people in this, is recognizing that this is going to happen again. I mean, people make all kinds of career decisions in their life. [00:22:50] Speaker B: Oh yeah. [00:22:51] Speaker C: As they move forward, there's just. And so for me, I try to help people think about their decision making process. How do they go about it, how are we going to do this? And then what can we learn from this process that you can then apply later? And so it's not just about the immediate concern, but it's also the learning that can come from our time together that hopefully when the situation emerges again, because it will, that they can retrieve what happened in our time together to be able to apply it the next time it it comes up. [00:23:24] Speaker B: And this is exactly what I mentioned just a minute ago with the relief of talking to you. For a student to be able to have it laid out more clearly a plan to go forward, whether it's talking to their parents or researching somebody who's doing the job that they might want to do, it's good to have somebody, a mentor like you. You said that you do. [00:23:48] Speaker C: Yeah. And I mean, we've done some research on this connection between career and mental health. And I don't want to get too much in, I don't want to nerd out too much. [00:23:57] Speaker B: This is why I had you on. [00:23:59] Speaker C: Sure, I appreciate that. So one of the Things I'm really interested in is that career decision making that I've already mentioned and then how do thoughts and feelings impact that decision making process? And we've done some research and this has consistently shown up that decision making confusion is a difficult thing to have and it can be impactful in terms of people's mental health as well. So when they're unsure of how they're going about making this decision, they don't have a clear process, as you were just describing, they don't know how they're going to move forward. It's not only impactful on the decision, but it's also impactful on their own well being at times. And so I think part of the role of counselors is to help with that decision making confusion. And if again, if anything that someone walks away from their time with me is they have clarity on a process that's going to enable them to move forward with how it is they want to navigate their career development. And again, research indicates that that's not only going to be beneficial for their career and work, but, but it's going to also be beneficial for their overall well being. [00:25:13] Speaker B: Most definitely. I mean, while you were talking, I was thinking about when students come in, sometimes they don't real. I don't know if you see this too. They don't really realize that this is going to sound weird, but they don't really realize sometimes that it is their career choice or their path that they're on. It's making them unhappy. And sometimes I will have to say, do you like what you're in? Do you like what you're doing? Even if they're a junior? Because they're scared. They're really scared to question it at that point because they're thinking, like I mentioned at the beginning of the show, they think it's too late to change. And so sometimes we go down that road, you know. [00:25:58] Speaker C: Yes, absolutely. And people can feel like their path is set. And then it's interesting to me too because you make decisions without a clear understanding of the outcome. Like you're, you're asked to decide without knowing the result. And so it's a difficult thing to do. Exactly, yeah. Or 20 if you're choosing a major, or 22 if you know, if you're more of a traditional age student. And so it's, there's a lot that goes into that. And so it's understandable for me that at times people will struggle and that people will have challenges with that. And my hope is that they are willing to seek support. Because oftentimes the stories we tell ourselves could use some investigation. Some of the things that we tell ourselves when we encounter these difficulties, we can personalize them, we can internalize them, make it about us and our shortcomings as opposed to about. There are some different things to consider that I just don't have full awareness of. And so my hope is that when people encounter that, that they're willing to reach out for help. And that help can be people that you trust and, and that care for you, that are in your corner. It can be counselors, it can be career practitioners, it can be mentors. But just to reach out for help, because I do think that. [00:27:27] Speaker B: Start talking. Start the dialogue. [00:27:28] Speaker C: Yes, that's right. Exactly. Because again, we can spin ourselves in these different circles. [00:27:34] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. We're going to take our second break. I promise to get to the email question right when we come back, because I forgot. We'll be right back. You're listening to brain matters on 90.7 the capstone. [00:27:55] Speaker C: Wvuafm Tuscaloosa. [00:27:57] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling and no relationship is created between the show host or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective counties crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room. [00:28:35] Speaker B: Hey, you're back listening to brain matters on 90.7 the Capstone. I'm Dr. BJ Guenther and we're talking tonight about career development and mental health. And my guest is Dr. Seth Hayden. He's assistant professor in counseling at Wake Forest University. Sounds like you've done a lot of research on this, a lot of research on this. [00:28:55] Speaker C: I'm very interested in the subject matter and grateful that I've had the opportunity to do some investigation of it. Because for me, with career and mental health, the question isn't if the question is how they're related. Because to me, because it is. It is. And there's a mountain of evidence of that. I mean, one of the things that's interesting about recent events. So we had, obviously the pandemic and not to bring people back to a dark time. Yeah, sure, it was. It was a misery, I'm sure for the people who are listening, certainly wasn't great. But it illuminated, I think, this connection between career and mental health that people hadn't really thought about. All of a sudden, people were working from home, trying to manage their families, trying to get different skills that they didn't know they needed to possess. Teachers were having to become zoom wizards to be able to teach. People who are working in grocery stores all of a sudden were frontline workers because they were trying to provide a needed service and people. And they were also coming in contact with people. And so to me, something that really came from that is it seemed like it expanded and amplified people's awareness of this connection between career and mental health. And. And so in that, I think that has invited conversations of what does it mean for us as we try to navigate this? And so for me, with my research, what I found is there is a connection, especially with thinking and feelings. So negative career thinking anxiety. We just actually released a paper that looks at the connection between anxiety and negative career thoughts and decision making and information processing. Wow. And so, but for me, it's also important that that information directly influences the practitioners. So people who are providing services. So I, again, I've been in that role. I've done that. I still have a license as a counselor and still do that. And so I want to make sure that the research and the information that we gather translates into benefiting people who are receiving support. And so that's something I try to focus on. [00:31:11] Speaker B: Well, and you did a great job speaking to our annual conference at the Alabama Counseling association in November. That's how I met Dr. Hayden and decided I wanted to invite him to come on the show. Because you presented some of this research in the talk. [00:31:28] Speaker C: Yeah, and thank you for that. I appreciate it. Kind of you to say that. It was my honor to. To do that. And. And yeah, it's just, I think it's important that we have awareness of this connection. And then as counselors, like whether you're working in a university counseling center, whether you're working in private practice, wherever I. There's this connection shows up. And one of the things that I've encountered at times with my students, so I teach people who are becoming clinical mental health counselors, school counselors, is that when they start their path in their graduate school, the career class, like the career focus isn't something they have necessarily some enthusiasm. I was that way too. I was like a career, like, I want to work with real mental health challenges. What is this career stuff? But then they start to get into their clinical training, and it's just like Dr. Gunther, you just described, it just keeps showing up like People are coming, talking about their stress and then talking about how it's related to work, talking about difficulties in their relationship. And oftentimes it's work related. And so it seems to continually manifest. And so then people are like, okay, like I need to continually pay attention to this, evaluate this with people I serve. And so, yeah, I think that's just an important consideration. [00:32:49] Speaker B: It's so cool. Let's get to these questions because they're so. [00:32:52] Speaker C: Yes. [00:32:52] Speaker B: Do you. Okay. Do you feel like students have an unrealistic expectation of earning potential with their first jobs out of college? And if so, how does this affect their mental health? [00:33:08] Speaker C: See, it's hard for me to make broad generalizations. I do think that people don't always have a full information set when they're transitioning. [00:33:20] Speaker B: Yes. [00:33:21] Speaker C: And so because I do think there are people who have awareness, there are some people who don't. And I don't know if that's just college students. I would say there are people in other paths that also have unrealistic, if you want to term it that, or just a lack of quality information. That, that to me is really what we're talking about. Do you have quality information? And so there's different ways to get that quality information. Onet is one thing, it's o STAR net. It's a governmental database of information about occupations. And so that's something I would encourage people to look at. It's quality information managed by the United States government. Talks about you can enter in a particular career, gives you an idea of the training, skills you'll need, job prospects for that, things that are resources in your area. So again, for me, like, it's hard for me to say, does everybody have unrealistic expectations? I do think there are times where people are lacking quality information to determine what's going to be ahead for them. And I would encourage people to find ways to do that, find ways to get that quality information so that they can make an informed decision, whatever that is. Because if you don't have that, then you can come in contact with a world that is different than what you anticipated. And that can be very difficult for people as you're moving forward. [00:34:48] Speaker B: I just feel like many of the students I see, they are choosing careers not necessarily by what they're good at or what they like, but it's basically about money. [00:35:01] Speaker C: Sure. [00:35:02] Speaker B: Especially when they're first coming into college. [00:35:05] Speaker C: Yes. [00:35:06] Speaker B: You know, and they're not. And, and sometimes I do have students with the opposite, of course, that choose what they're good at and what they like, and then they have confidence in themselves enough to know I'm going to be able to support myself. [00:35:22] Speaker C: So as a former business major, myself, before I transitioned to psychology and education and counseling, the fun stuff. Yeah, definitely. You know, but for me, it's about someone's values. Like, and so what is it that you value? I mean, if people want to make money, by all means, if that's a motivating, if that's a motivating thing for you, then let's talk about that. Let's, let's see what that's going to look like for you. I do think that there are times where people think they value certain things and then they realize they value other things as well or other things instead. And so I think that happens as well is that they, they believe that this is what they want. And then they, as they move forward and they develop and they have experiences, especially at university, they start to realize there are other things. And I think a lot of that's exposure. [00:36:16] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:36:17] Speaker C: Like, you know, you get exposed to different things. Yeah, that's right. And you start to realize things. And, and this isn't just, again, I keep saying this, but this is just people in colleges, I mean, I, we have people who come, decide to. They want to do graduate school and counseling in their 40s and 50s. Yeah, the 40s and 50s, they were. And some of these people were in very lucrative in terms of finances. [00:36:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:42] Speaker C: Careers, they were doing really well. And then they decided to want to be mental health counselors, which typically is not the most lucrative financially of careers, although you can make a pretty good living. And so I do think that that, like, that's a, that's part of the career development. The lifelong journey that I think we, we go on is you have a sense of what you want, but then things happen, life happens, experience happens. [00:37:07] Speaker B: That's right. [00:37:08] Speaker C: And you start to have new things to think about. [00:37:10] Speaker B: Here's another question, and this one is a broad question, but your career work, I think will help with this question. Are there careers that have been found to negatively impact mental health? [00:37:25] Speaker C: I do think that there are occupational considerations for lots of different careers. And so certainly, I mean, one quick example for me that comes to mind, and I'll talk more broadly, but I think maybe starting with one thing specific and then zoning out on that. So I was working at one point with somebody who was an Ivy League educated attorney and had gotten a job in Manhattan at one of the big law firms there. Like, I mean, that's like a lot of People find that very desirable within that profession. And was absolutely miserable. Was absolutely miserable. And just one day abruptly quit. Like, just quit. Because the expectations were that you're going to work an insane amount of hours every week as you're establishing yourself. Yes, exactly. High expectations. And so some people would thrive in that environment. Some people would thrive in that and be like, yes, this is what I want to do. Not everybody would. [00:38:32] Speaker B: No. [00:38:32] Speaker C: So I do think that there are occupational considerations. One of the things for counselors is burnout and compassion fatigue. That's one of the things that we talk a lot with our people who are emerging in the profession about is this ability to be able to do this work so that you don't experience burnout. Certainly, if you're a first responder, there are things you're going to encounter consistently that could be challenging. My father was an emergency room physician. [00:38:59] Speaker B: There you go. [00:39:00] Speaker C: And so certain people, I mean, he thrived. He thrived in that environment. Not everyone would. And so I do think there are occupational considerations that it's useful to be aware of as you're going into it, but then also useful to pay attention to as you go forward to think about what is the impact of my work on me? Like, what is it like for me to do this? Am I able to do my work and also enjoy things outside of work? Do I. Do I feel fulfilled? Do I feel fulfilled in my life? And I do think that sometimes we put a lot of expectations on what work is going to do for us. So I think that's a challenge too, because there are things you can do to supplement what you're not getting from your work. There are hobbies. There are different things as well. But, yeah, I think there are different occupational considerations. And it's important to think about it as you're going into it, but then also think about it as you're doing it. [00:40:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:02] Speaker C: And then pay attention to that. [00:40:04] Speaker B: But like you said in the beginning, the majority of the time we spend is at work. [00:40:08] Speaker C: Yes. [00:40:10] Speaker B: So your words are telling. Makes sense. Okay, we've got a few more. I'm gonna take another. This is gonna be our last break. And when we come back, I've got two more email questions, and they're good ones. So I want you to. I want to see what your answers will be. We'll be right back. You're listening to brain matters on 90.7, the capstone. [00:40:39] Speaker C: Wvuafm Tuscaloosa. [00:40:41] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling. And no relationship is created between the show host or Guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective counties crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room. [00:41:18] Speaker B: Hey, you're back listening to brain matters on 90.7 the Capstone. I'm BJ Gunther. We're talking tonight about career development and mental health. It is more connected than you may imagine. And My guest is Dr. Seth Hayden. He is associate professor of counseling and clinical mental health program coordinator. That's how sounds hard at Wake Forest University. It sounds challenging. How long? [00:41:43] Speaker C: It's always interesting. It's always interesting for sure. [00:41:46] Speaker B: How long have you been at Wake? [00:41:48] Speaker C: I've been awake since 2014. [00:41:50] Speaker B: Okay. [00:41:50] Speaker C: So yeah, it's been great. Yeah, it's been. I've really enjoyed it. I appreciate the diversity of my role. I get to teach, I get to supervise, I get to do research. [00:42:01] Speaker B: A little bit everything. [00:42:03] Speaker C: A little bit everything. So yeah, that works for me. [00:42:06] Speaker B: So the next email question we have is do you have any favorite assessments or screening tools that assist students in matching a career with their personality type and their strengths besides O Net? [00:42:20] Speaker C: Sure. Yeah, it's definitely. And I would encourage people to actually do this in support of a practitioner because I do think that career assessments, there's a jillion of them out there. I could pull up Google right now. Now I could start to do a career assessment. The challenge with that is that not all of them are great. And I'll give you a couple specifically that I think are of value. But I think it's important to do that with somebody, somebody who has an understanding of what these results mean and also can help you use the information to your benefit. And so I know like giving mass career assessments is common. They'll do it in school systems. They'll do it. And you know that there's some benefit to that for sure. But I would encourage people to take the information that you get and then go talk to somebody about it. Go talk to somebody who knows how to use that information to your benefit. So one of the things that I found of value is called the self directed search. It's a Holland based assessment. So John Holland's work really focused on personality types aligned with occupational environments. [00:43:32] Speaker B: Yes. [00:43:33] Speaker C: And so it looks at interests and helps you enhance your self knowledge. And then what kind of Careers seem to align with your interests. So self directed search John Holland's work. There's different personality types and there's different environments that align with that. And so that's one that I found a value, one that I use but would definitely need to be administered by somebody who has the ability to do so is the Career Thoughts Inventory. And so the Career Thoughts Inventory gets at the thinking that's associated with someone's career decision making and problem solving. And so what research has indicated is that when you have negative career thoughts, it's going to make it difficult for you to move forward in a way that you want in your career in terms of your development. And so the Career Thoughts Inventory I think has value in that you get a sense of what are the messages we tell ourselves when we're navigating career and work. And then are these things useful? Are these things not useful? If they're not useful, how can I think of a different way to reshape those things to where they are? And so the Career Thoughts Inventory is another one that I think has value. Some others that are less kind of objective. There's card sorts. So there are. [00:45:08] Speaker B: Say that again. [00:45:08] Speaker C: So card sorts, like DECA cards and then you sort them. I would encourage people to work with somebody on these, but they're really interesting to me because. Quick description of it. So with the card sort you might get four different categories, like not likely at all, least likely likely or more likely. And then you'd have different occupational options. And so then you can organize the cards in these different piles. [00:45:37] Speaker B: Wow. [00:45:38] Speaker C: And then you can see, okay, what does this look like? Like what are there some things that I'm. [00:45:41] Speaker B: I would think suited. [00:45:42] Speaker C: I'm considering that. Yeah, I found them to be really helpful. I found those to be really helpful. So those are card sorts. Again, I encourage you to maybe try to touch base with somebody on those. But there could be the potential for you to do it in other ways as well. But it's a less formalized assessment. But it just gives you a framework in which to think about these things because it can be just really overwhelming at times. There's so many options out there. There's so many. [00:46:09] Speaker B: Is the strong Campbell still used? Because back in my day, back in 01, that is all we had was the strong Campbell Interest Inventory. [00:46:20] Speaker C: Yeah, similar. Strong interest Inventory. It's similar to the Holland assessment in terms of the way in which it's organized. So it gives you similar interest aligned with options. That's what that's going to essentially give you and so that's another option as well. And so, you know, one of the things for students in the University of Alabama, I would encourage you just go to your career center and say, hey, I'm wondering if there might be an assessment that, that I could utilize here. And I would anticipate that practitioner would talk you through what that would look like and what are you trying to get out of this? How can we use this information? But if you're feeling stuck and your own ways of doing this have not gotten you what you want, a career assessment can be a nice way to move forward and get some good information to try and determine what are some things maybe to think about. And maybe going to the University of Alabama Career center and asking about what do they have available and how could you use it would be one step. [00:47:23] Speaker B: And I mean, don't be afraid to question whether or not you're in the right major. You know, don't be afraid of that. Even if you're a junior. Go and get some of these assessments to help you pinpoint it down. You may be able to. Able to utilize your major, what you're doing already, and add one on. I don't know. Hear that a lot. This is what we talk about a lot, you know. [00:47:47] Speaker C: Yeah, definitely. And also, what can you really do with your major? Again, I just think that sometimes we have a very limited consideration of what our options align with my major. And so I just would encourage you to think about what are some potential pathways and if you're stuck, talk to somebody about it. Like, let's explore it. Yeah. [00:48:11] Speaker B: One more question. One more email question. Any specific techniques you recommend for the transition from college to career? [00:48:21] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, it's a big transition. It's a big transition. There's a lot. There's a personal element to it. There's a occupational element to it. For me, what I think about is how do you build what you want your life to be like? How do you take steps to get where it is you want to go and realize that at times we're playing the long game. And so sometimes people's first job out of college isn't their dream job. And in fact, that's often what the case is. So the question I would have people ask is, what can I learn from this? What kind of skills am I developing from this? What am I learning from this? What are ways in which I can use this to move in the direction that I want to go? So what are the goals that I have? What am I trying to achieve? And then what are the experiences that I can have that can help me move in that direction? And so coming out of college, you might make decisions on taking a particular job for a variety of reasons. You're just trying to get some gainful employment, which is totally understandable. So again, it may not be the job, but even within gainful employment, and you're getting paid and it's able to pay your bills. Like, again, what am I getting from this experience? What kind of skills am I learning? How can I take advantage of opportunities that they have here? What kind of development does this particular organization provide to their employees? Like, what are some skill sets that I can acquire through my experience? So, again, thinking about how can I move in the direction that I'm looking for? Thinking about what are my career goals and then what are some steps I can do to get there? One of the things that one of my colleagues came up with is something called the constructivist resume. It's Dr. Scholl here at Wake Forest University. And so it's essentially to create your resume five years from now. Like, so you write up your resume about five years in the future. What would it look like? And so I think it's a really interesting exercise because what it does is it has you visioning about what can happen in the future. And then you think about, okay, so this is where it'll be five years from now. How do I get from here to there? What are the steps that I can take? What are the trainings that I need? What are the experiences that I can accrue? They're going to help me get to that particular place. [00:51:02] Speaker B: That's cool. That. That. Would you use that with upperclassmen or any. Any class, any age? [00:51:09] Speaker C: Yeah, I think any class, really. Anybody who'd be open to the exercise. I think there can be. And you can. Obviously the time frame is. Can be changed. You can make it 10 years from now if that is better. You can make it at the end of college. If that's your freshman year. Yeah. What's it going to look like? Yeah. When you're a senior. So you can think about how do I shape my college experience that I'm leaving with this particular resume? [00:51:35] Speaker B: I find too. And I know you've experienced this too, probably. I find that students, sometimes they are not sure of their degree, you know, when they're graduating. So they decide, I'm going to go to graduate school or I'm going to go to law school. And they really don't want to do that. They really don't. We get down to the root, you know, in our sessions. And I feel like it's just a stall tactic. [00:52:01] Speaker C: Yeah, sure. Yes. I think there are times where people will look at options that will not necessarily be what they're primarily interested in. [00:52:12] Speaker B: That's right. [00:52:12] Speaker C: But is plausible. Like it's something I can do while I'm trying to figure it out. And so I guess for me, my hope would be again that decision making process. Another thing we found in. In research though is that sometimes people have a lot of anxiety around making that choice. [00:52:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:52:33] Speaker C: So that commitment to something can be very anxiety provoking. One of the things I found is that like the day that people had to choose a major, as I mentioned earlier, we get flooded and people are just highly anxious and they just pick something. [00:52:50] Speaker B: Wow. [00:52:50] Speaker C: It's like, okay, I'm just going to pick something. Because they just do the point on the map. Exactly. Exact. Because. Because it's, you know, their anxiety around that is pervasive and difficult to navigate. And so for me it's like, how do we. Yes, that's right. Exactly. And so for me it's like, how do we find a different way for you to experience this to where you feel that what you're doing is aligning with what you are hoping to do, who you are as a person, those kinds of things. If you want to be an attorney, great. If you're going to law school because you don't want to make that decision, that seems like a lot of investment of resources really to be uncertain about that as a career path for you. [00:53:41] Speaker B: And the LSAT is not pretty sure. [00:53:44] Speaker C: Yes. The significant. I do a lot of work with. I do a lot of work with law students at Wake Forest. I'm also have an academic appointment of law school because we have a veterans legal clinic and I do a lot of work with veterans and. And so yeah, I'm familiar with the experience. It's brutal. Law school is difficult. But there's. But one thing I will say after going through. There's a lot of different ways you can be an attorney. Oh yeah, yeah. So that's one of the things I also, I think people have an image at times. [00:54:16] Speaker B: Yes. [00:54:17] Speaker C: Or of what an occupation is. There's so many different ways to be certain things. And so for me it's like, how do we gain an understanding of the different pathways? You can be a physician and never work with patients. You can be an attorney and never be in a courtroom or be in courtroom for a very short period of time. You can be an accountant and work with a governmental non profit or you can work with a big accounting firm. And so there's a lot of different ways that you can do certain things. And so it's a matter of finding what that is. So. [00:54:56] Speaker B: Yeah, well, listen, this hour has gone by extremely fast and I did not get to one question that I prepared for you. We totally went down the rabbit hole. We had some really good email questions too, though that led me to some other questions that I didn't even realize I had. So thank you for being on the show. [00:55:16] Speaker C: Yeah, I really appreciate the opportunity to be with you. I certainly, that was fun. Always. Yeah, I always enjoy talking about it and hopefully people are listening, find it in some way beneficial and, and just hope that they seek support when needed at the University of Alabama because I envision there's a lot of rich resources there for them. So I would encourage them to access those things. [00:55:37] Speaker B: I hope so. Stay on the line for just a minute. Let me make a few announcements. We'll be, I'll be right back with you because I want to ask you something after I close. Don't forget, our shows are recorded and podcasted on the Apple Podcast, Spotify, AudioBoom, Voices UA Edu. Just type in Brain Matters and you'll find some of our past shows. There's also a link to Voices UA Edu on our counseling center's website and that's Counseling UA Edu. I always like to thank a few people who've made the show possible. Dr. Greg Vanderwaal, he's our executive director here at the Counseling center. My producer, Kathryn Howell, hopefully she'll be back next week. She's been sick. My colleagues at the counseling center, Gareth Garner, who edits our shows every week for us and the WVUA staff, and of course, my guest tonight, Dr. Seth Hayden. Don't forget, we're on next week. I cannot remember what our topic is going to be. I think we might skip a week and then let me look and see because I want to announce the topic because it's going to be very interesting. It's what heals our pets, heals us, too. And I'm gonna have a veterinarian on the show. This is kind of a different angle for me. Who knows what will happen on the show, but it sounds anything to do with animals I want to be a part of. So it sounds really interesting. And Dr. Hayden, thank you again for being on the show. Don't forget we're on next week at the same time, same place, hopefully. Thanks again for listening. Have a good night. [00:57:14] Speaker A: This show was not intended as a substitute for professional counseling. Further, the views, opinions and conclusions expressed by the show hosts or their guests are their own and not necessarily those of the University of Alabama, its officers or trustees. Any views, opinions or conclusions shared on the show do not create a relationship between the host or any guest and any listener, and such a relationship should never be inferred. If you feel you're in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, please contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective county's crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.