Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling and no relationship is created between the show host or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective counties crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emerg.
[00:00:41] Speaker B: It's 6:00 in time again for Brain Matters, the official radio show of the UA Counseling Center. We are broadcasting from the campus of the University of Alabama. Good evening. My name is Dr. B.J. guenther and I'm the host of the show along with my colleague and producer Kathryn Howell. And in case you don't know, this show is about mental and physical health issues that affect college students and in particular UA students. So you can listen to us each Tuesday night at 6pm on 90.7 FM or you can listen online at WVUAFM UA. Edu and you can also download some apps. I like the MyTuner radio app and just type in WVUAFM 90.7. You'll find our shows there. Also, we probably have about maybe four shows left. We only do shows in the fall and in the spring semesters. We don't do them in the summer. So we have about four shows left. I have those shows already scheduled so with the top. But if you're listening and you have ideas for upcoming show topics for the fall, email those to me@brain mattersradiobuafm ua edu and of course I'll consider using those topics. There's really no topic that's off limits. I feel like since 2013, when we started the show, I feel like we've done everything that pertains to college mental health. But you just never know. There's always trends, there's always changing treatments and changing issues.
So don't hesitate if you think we have not done the show or if we have done the show and you're worried about it being redone, we can redo it and tweak it a little bit and get more specific. Tonight's show topic is one. I'll be honest, I've never really heard this topic. Catherine researched and found this topic and sent it to me and I find it intriguing. My expertise is really not in trauma, but working at a college counseling center. I have, I have sure seen, surely seen my, you know, part. I guess you Would say of some trauma. Definitely here. So this, this topic tonight is betrayal trauma. Any betrayal, excuse me, any betrayal can cause emotional distress. But you might experience lingering trauma when someone you depend on to respect your needs and help safeguard your well being violates your trust. And when a person has a relationship that involves dependence or trust with the person or institution responsible for that pain, they can experience a high amount of betrayal along with the trau. So my guest tonight, I found. Let's see, I think Catherine helped me find his information and I reached out to him about betrayal trauma. Dr. Jake Porter. Dr. Porter is a licensed professional counselor, just like myself in several states. He's licensed, but also the founder of Daring Ventures, a counseling practice, coaching organization and consultation service located primarily in Texas, in Houston and Dallas. And Dr. Porsche, Dr. Porter, he's joining us from Houston. Did you say?
[00:03:43] Speaker C: Yes, ma'am, from Houston.
[00:03:44] Speaker B: So you're on the same time zone as myself, which is kind of nice because we've interviewed people from all over the world. I remember we interviewed someone, I think in the British Virgin Islands one time and that was kind of weird, coordinating the time. And I believe that's when we were actually doing a live show because for years we only did a live show. So that made it challenging, you know. Thank you for being on the show.
[00:04:07] Speaker C: Oh, it is my pleasure, my honor. Happy to be here. Thank you.
[00:04:11] Speaker B: Tell the listeners, if I didn't already give you the proper introduction, but tell the listeners about yourself, your credentials, why you're interested in this topic.
[00:04:19] Speaker C: Sure. Well, I think my most important credential is I am husband to Kristen. I am father to Magnolia, Jane and Lottie Jo and two little girls. And those are my proudest credentials. But yeah, I'm an LPC like you said, became an LPC.
I don't remember 2018, something like that. Before that I was a pastor. I spent 13 years as a, as a pastor, a local church pastor. And.
But I really came to this through my own experience. I'm in long term recovery myself. And so this was an interest to me and, and I've got a lot of, a lot of background in attachment based theories of counseling, emotion focused therapy, and, and bring all that to bear in this work with couples. So yeah, it's really my passion and my honor. I get to work with couples from all around the world and, and yeah, do this fun work.
[00:05:22] Speaker B: Did you, when you were a pastor, before you became an lpc, did you see some of this betrayal trauma and you didn't really know what it was? You know, is This a newer term or help educate me about betrayal trauma and what's different about betra? Trauma and trauma in general.
[00:05:40] Speaker C: Yes. Great, great, great questions. Okay, so.
So here's a little bit of history of the field. Okay. To give some context or this idea of betrayal trauma. So I work primarily where. With couples where there's been betrayal associated with sexual infidelity, whether it's the discovery of previously hidden compulsive sexual behaviors or chronic infidelities, that kind.
And, you know, there's certainly other kinds of betrayal. We can get into that later. But that's primarily what I work with. Well, back in the 80s is when people first started talking about this idea of sex addiction or compulsive sexual behavior. A guy named Patrick Carnes has done a lot of work around that. I can remember seeing clips of him on the Phil Donahue show. Now, probably anyone in college right now is too young to know who Phil Donahue was, but we remember old Phil Donahue and his show in the 80s, Big Talk Talk show guy. And he had doct Patrick Carnes on there. And Patrick Carnes is saying, no people can be addicted to sex. And Phil Donahue is just ridiculing him, just giving him a hard time, saying, no way, no way, no way. And lo and behold, few years ago, the World Health Organization actually adds to the ICD this. This idea of compulsive sexual behavior. And so. So it is a real thing. But. But to get to the betrayal piece. So back when this was first being talked about in the 80s, what people like Patrick Carnes did is they took models that worked for other addictions, like alco.
[00:07:13] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:07:14] Speaker C: And the AA model. And they just tried to import that over and apply it to unwanted sexual behaviors and compulsive sexual behaviors. Now, what that did was you take AA and you've got the companion program, Al Anon. Right. And so they started SAA Sex Addicts Anonymous or SA Sexaholics Anonymous, and then a companion program, Essenon. Now, what that did was it took a model that was based on something called codependency or co addiction, and it impose that upon the partners who are discovering these hidden, secret sexual behaviors. Now, here's the thing. I'm not saying alcoholism can never be totally hidden behavior, but most of the time, the partner of an alcoholic knows they're alcoholic. That is very different than what I see. I see couples where the betrayed partner had no idea for maybe decades at a time.
Okay? That is a very different thing. That is not co addiction. That is not Codependency.
[00:08:21] Speaker B: It's not enabling either.
[00:08:22] Speaker C: It's not enabling.
[00:08:23] Speaker B: I hear that term a lot in aa, you know.
[00:08:25] Speaker C: Exactly, exactly. But, but it was what was out there. And I don't want to like disparage the people who were doing it. They were, they were pioneers in the field. Right. But, but then here comes in the mid-2000s, okay, a woman named Barbara Steffens. And Barbara Steffens, she's the founding president of an organ called appsats, the association of Partners of Sex Addict Trauma specialists. And she did her, her dissertation in 2005. Her doctoral research was on the experience of women who discovered hidden sexual behaviors. And what she did was she looked at it through the lens of trauma versus the lens of so called codependency. And the results were just.
[00:09:09] Speaker B: That changed everything.
[00:09:10] Speaker C: Changed everything. It really did itself. It set the whole field on a different trajectory. Such now it is just agreed upon that I'm not saying there can't be a partner of a sex addict or someone who was betrayed, who has codependent tendencies or whatever, but we cannot assume it. Many of these people had no idea.
[00:09:35] Speaker B: It's shocking. I mean, I'm just shocked. Most of the research I did prior to the show focused more on childhood trauma and, but also I wrote this down, hang on infidelity, like we're talking about. They didn't label it as sex addiction as much in the articles I was reading. And maybe I just, well, type in the right thing.
[00:10:03] Speaker C: Well, so, so there are, there's another use of the term betrayal trauma that sometimes gets a little bit confused where it's, it's referring more to the betrayal that a child might experience from a parent who is not stepping into that caregiving role. Yes, but the dynamics aren't actually all that different. I mean, yes, it's different when you're a child versus an adult. But, but betrayal trauma is. Anytime there's a trauma response that occurs when somebody you deeply depend on for safety and security violates your trust. Especially when it happens through deception.
[00:10:39] Speaker B: Yeah, that's, that's like what I read in the introduction.
[00:10:43] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:10:44] Speaker B: Basically is someone you depend on to respect your needs and help safeguard your well being.
[00:10:50] Speaker C: That's right.
[00:10:50] Speaker B: That's what I gathered from the articles I read.
[00:10:53] Speaker C: Yeah, that's right. And, and we know for example from about like the attachment system. Right. So as adults we attach to people. We attach in our primary relationships. This is a biological process within us that, that we need we upon it. And so when all of a sudden one of my primary Attachment relationships is revealed to be not what I thought a lie.
[00:11:23] Speaker B: A lie, basically.
[00:11:24] Speaker C: It is a it. And we can go into details about this if you want to. It is a shock to the brain. It is an absolute shock to the brain. It causes inflation of the amygdala. The hippocampus is disrupted in some really important ways.
[00:11:43] Speaker B: Like literally, you're saying your brain changes. Literally. It's not just the term a shock, like you, you know, oh, my gosh. Like that. It literally changes your brain.
[00:11:53] Speaker C: It literally changes your brain. And you asked, how is betrayal trauma different from other types of trauma? Well, it's very similar in many ways. But there's one way that I think is really important to point out that it's different, and that is that whereas in traditional, more regular trauma measures, we have a category of symptoms called aversion. Right. We want to avoid reminders of the trauma. What we see with betrayal trauma is that there's a review. But you were aware. But tell me again, but how many? But what? But what? And this review, and it has to do with what's happening in the hippocampus, is being driven because your entire autobiography and your narrative of your own history has shattered. And that is fundamentally unsafe for a person.
[00:12:41] Speaker B: That's just horrible to think about. Let's take our first break, and then when we come back, I want to ask you about the population of the clients you see, I guess is my question, but also what happens and how soon you see somebody after they've discovered this. So hang tight. You're listening to brain matters on 90.7, the capstone.
[00:13:17] Speaker C: WVUAFM Tuscaloosa.
[00:13:19] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling, and no relationship is created between the show hosts or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective counties crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
[00:13:56] Speaker B: Hey, you're back listening to brain matters on 90.7 the Capstone. I'm Dr. BJ Gunther, and we're talking tonight about betrayal trauma. And before I forget, Kathryn is reminding me our email here. If you have a question for my guest or myself or you have an idea for an upcoming topic, email those to me at brain mattersradiovuafm.ua.edu and my guest is Dr. Jake Porter. He is joining us from Houston, Texas, where he is a licensed professional counselor and owns a practice called Daring Ventures, which. I like that name we were talking about when we left off. We're talking about really how the brain changes when someone has learned something. Well, has been betrayed, basically about some from someone they've trusted, especially when it comes to a relationship. And so how soon have you actually seen someone. This puts you on the spot. Sorry, Dr. Jake, but when they've learned this and you said it's unsafe, what do you mean by that? Do you mean like somebody could become homicidal or suicidal? I'm just going there.
[00:15:08] Speaker C: Sure, sure. Well, I mean, that. That certainly has happened, you know, I mean, and there's some pretty crazy stories we've all probably would remember from the news that I think involve some betrayal trauma. But that's a minority, A very small minority of the cases.
[00:15:23] Speaker B: Well, and a Carrie Underwood song, too.
[00:15:25] Speaker C: Well, yo, I love that song.
Don't make me sing.
[00:15:29] Speaker B: Yeah, no, yeah, I'll edit it out, too.
[00:15:34] Speaker C: You'd. Um, well, so let me. Let me start with your first question, then I'll move to the second one. So how soon do I see people? I've seen people within day. I've talked to people within days of discovery, but I've also gotten people in my office who, you know, their discovery happened a decade ago and they're just now getting help.
[00:15:55] Speaker B: Oh, really? Okay.
[00:15:56] Speaker C: So. So there's. There's a huge range. I would say. On average, though, most of the people that I see, they've had discovery within, you know, the last few. Few months. And the way this usually goes is first they. They know something's wrong and they do a Google search and they find a marriage therapist. And listen, I'm, I'm. I love my colleagues who are marriage therapists and counselors, but this is a very specialized area. And if. If you go to someone who doesn't really understand how to deal with betrayal trauma, you can actually experience treatment induced trauma layered on top of the betrayal trauma. You know, and so sometimes they go through that, and then finally they're like, this isn't working. That's not working. And they. They stumble upon my YouTube channel or my Instagram or they hear about someone else's, and they get to me that way, you know, so. Because they go, that's it. That's what I'm going through. And it has to do with your second question, which is what I mean by not safe, that they're not safe. They know they're not safe. Here's what I mean.
Your brain's number one job. Job is to keep you safe and alive. Right? Like, like that is the overriding, number one top priority of your brain to keep you safe and alive. Well, the best way to do that is to be able to anticipate future threat. Right. If I can anticipate that a threat is coming, I can. That's my best shot of protecting myself from it. Well, on what do I base my prediction of future threat? Well, my understanding of the past.
So when I think I understand my past, I use that to understand what could harm me in the future. Well, what happens to a lot of these folks is they discover that the narrative they have of the past is not just incomplete, it was, it was completely wrong. There was so much that they did not know that their whole narrative just, just collapses and falls. And so the brain is. Now it's, it needs to know what happened to me. Because if I can't, if I can't wrap my arms around what happened in the past, what you did, where you were, how you did that, why you do it. Right? How many times, where was I? If I can't wrap my mind around that, how can I keep myself safe in the future? That's the first level of safety.
[00:18:10] Speaker B: The brain needs an answer.
[00:18:11] Speaker C: The brain needs an answer. And so a lot of people say betrayed partners are ruminating. I hate when they describe it as a rumination. It is not rumination. This is a safety seeking, survival response. You were aware. But how many times this questioning over and over.
[00:18:29] Speaker B: Yeah. Ironically, that also happens with, I see this with breakups.
[00:18:35] Speaker C: Oh, yeah.
[00:18:36] Speaker B: And, and, and their friends. This is a sidebar. This is a whole other show, Catherine. Sidebar. They go down that rabbit hole where their friends get really tired of the. What they call is ruminating. But they're doing the same thing you're talking about.
It's maybe minuscule compared to what we're talking about, but it's still the same effect.
[00:18:59] Speaker C: It's the same thing. And, and you know, I'm assuming many of the folks you're talking about, they're in a little different place developmentally from maybe a lot of people I am. And so the effect may be very much the same. I don't want to minimize what they're going through.
[00:19:12] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:19:12] Speaker C: If I was counting on my assumptive reality is it's you and me, right? Like that's my assumptive reality of the world is it's you and me. You're my person and all of a sudden you're not my person. Well, we are fundamentally attachment based beings. We need, we know we need attachments. And so when that is threatened, when I lose that, it sends me into a tailspin. So I need to know what happened in order to protect myself in the future. But here's the other piece of it. For a lot of these folks that I see say I've had people that have been married 40 and 50 plus years and then they have discovery.
[00:19:50] Speaker B: I got a question about that. Don't let me forget, okay?
[00:19:53] Speaker C: But here, not only is this about safety for them, this is an existential crisis. Their identity was bound up in this relationship, their understanding of the world. Where was God? Why didn't God help me with this? Who knew someone so new? Yeah, I mean, so all of that, so it really creates an existential crisis as well.
[00:20:12] Speaker B: My question is, in one of the articles I read a, about a term called betrayal blindness and it's basically, have you ever heard that term?
They basically described it as kind of what, maybe what's happened with these people who have been married a long time and didn't realize it. Like you mentioned a little bit earlier, didn't realize it and are now just kind of coming to terms with it and want to talk about it or process it. But the betrayal, the betrayal blindness is a protective factor is what the article said.
[00:20:48] Speaker C: I think that that's true and here's, you know, what I want to say real clearly about that. So I've had many, many clients come in where the storyline is, okay, We've been together for 30 years and yeah, three years into our marriage, I caught him having an affair, but he told me it was over with. And then yes, I caught him again at year 12, but he said it was over. And then they start blaming themselves. Why did I trust him? Why did I believe him? And why didn't I dig more, look more, why did I blame themselves and trust them and blame themselves? But here's what's happening there. I think there's nothing inherently pathological about trusting your partner and wanting to believe the best about them.
[00:21:28] Speaker B: Right?
[00:21:29] Speaker C: There's nothing inherently pathological about that. Most, most people in our culture, when they get married, the idea that you would do something to hurt your marriage, it's like assumed, I'm not going to hurt my marriage. If I hurt my marriage, I hurt me.
Well, not everyone gets to that place developmentally, but a lot of these betrayed partners, they did, they just believed and assumed that their partner felt the same way. Why Would I hurt my marriage? If I hurt my marriage, I hurt me. Well, their partner developmentally never got there. Yeah, right. So there, yeah. Things weren't rosy all the time. It wasn't, you know, rainbows and unicorns and sprinkles all the time. There were bad things that happened, but they trusted their partner. They wanted to believe the best. There's nothing pathological about that. We're wired for that.
[00:22:15] Speaker B: So question, did you just go okay, did I just miss it? Because I don't want to be redundant. Did we go through the stages of betrayal, trauma? Okay, what are the stages or the is the different types? No, let's talk about the stages first.
[00:22:32] Speaker C: Okay? Okay. So stages as far as healing and recovery.
So I use a model that is based on the work of Judith Herman.
So she has a three phase model that was picked up by that organization I mentioned earlier, AppSats. They turned that into something called the multidimensional partner trauma model.
[00:22:54] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:22:54] Speaker C: And then I took that and I applied it, change it to work with couples. But basically the three phases are phase one, safety and stabilization.
So everything's been blown up, everything's up in the air. We got to regulate the nervous system. We've got to establish some initial boundaries. We've got to stop the ongoing harm. There might be a need for a therapeutic separation or an in house separation, some sort. But this is about stop continued harm. Bring safety and stability to just calm things down. Phase two is really about grief, work, mourning and remembrance. Now that we're safe, we can begin to process the pain. If I'm in threat, I'm not processing pain. Right. That's why we have to do safety and stability first. Then once I'm safe and stable now I can deal with the pain of the betrayal. And grief is fundamentally a meaning making process. What does it mean that this story I believed is gone? Right. It's a meaning. So what does it mean that this has happened to me? What does it mean that this is now a part of my story? What does it mean that we're going to rebuild truth? Are we going to rebuild truth together? Are we going our own ways in rebuilding this truth? That's phase two. It's a meaning making process.
Then phase three is about rebuilding and growth. Here we start experiencing and really living some of that post traumatic growth that I loved. I love talking about post traumatic growth. Not just post traumatic stress, but the growth piece here. It's like what is my identity now? A new identity. What are my values?
A new sense of wholeness. Individually maybe together, if the couple stayed together.
And so that's more forward looking. And there's a lot of really joy and newness in that. In that last phase, who do you see?
[00:24:46] Speaker B: Do you usually come in contact with the person who's been betrayed first or do they come in as a couple? And, and do you have limitations on that? Had you prefer to see the person who's been betrayed or had you prefer to see the couple first for the first session?
[00:25:05] Speaker C: So I have the luxury of getting to be really choosy. Okay. And I have made a decision that really, by and large, I only work with couples now.
[00:25:18] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:25:18] Speaker C: That's what I do. I work with couples. However, in my, my clinic and I've got like 25 people on my team now.
We see people, we see betraying partners, we see betrayed partners. Sometimes one comes in first, then the other. Then we help them as a couple. So really can go in any sort of order or direction.
[00:25:38] Speaker B: And your, your practice, the website is fantastic. It's daringventures.com, right?
[00:25:43] Speaker C: That's right.
[00:25:44] Speaker B: And you mentioned. I'm glad you mentioned because I had a question about what is the Daring Venture Ventures model? You just explained it. So. Yeah, that's one of my. You just answered one of my questions. We're going to take our second break and when we come back, let's start talking about, well, let's talk about the different types of betrayal trauma. You may have touched on that already a little bit. But then let's talk about the impact of it in more detail because this is curious to me. And what's the difference between post traumatic stress disorder and this and this kind of trauma? I don't know if there is, if it matters, if it's different, if the treatment is the same. Help me to remember these questions when we come back.
[00:26:25] Speaker C: I got them all right here.
[00:26:27] Speaker B: We'll be right back. You're listening to brain matters on 90.7, the capstone.
[00:26:42] Speaker C: WVUAFM Tuscaloosa.
[00:26:45] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling and no relationship is created between the show hosts or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective counties crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
[00:27:22] Speaker B: You're back listening to brain matters on 90.7. The capstone. I'm BJ Guenther. We're talking tonight about betrayal trauma. And my guest is Dr. Jake Porter from Houston, Texas. He has a huge practice that covers. I mean, you're licensed in several states. Names a state. Oh, I thought it was several.
[00:27:43] Speaker C: I'm licensed in Texas and Montana. That's my dream of getting the Texas heat. But I've got people licensed in Arizona, Virginia.
[00:27:52] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:27:53] Speaker C: Florida, Texas. Yeah, maybe.
[00:27:55] Speaker B: I read that on his website, daringventures.com. it's fantastic. Go check it out. And we're talking about betrayal trauma, which I do not feel like, you know, looking back, I probably have seen people with this and didn't realize it over the years because it wasn't. Wasn't. I did. I wasn't educated on what it is. And, and so I was treating trauma or making a referral to a specialist, to be honest. What is the different stages?
[00:28:24] Speaker C: Stages. As far as different types.
[00:28:27] Speaker B: What's the different type? Sorry.
[00:28:29] Speaker C: Sure, sure, sure. So. So different types. So there's. I'm going to give you some types. Just I want listeners to know there's not heart hard and fast lines here. There's a lot of overlap among these. But, you know, we already talked about sexual betrayal, infidelity, discovery of compulsive sexual behaviors, that kind of thing. But a big one that I've seen is financial betrayal. So, you know, like, I've had clients where one partner suddenly discovers that the other one is, you know, $150,000 in debt to the IRS or, you know, has. Has $80,000 worth of credit card debt or has loaned $30,000 without talking to, you know, loaned it to a friend or a family member. So that's huge. So financial betrayal.
[00:29:15] Speaker B: I don't know if you Sidebar. I don't. Again, I don't know if you've seen Breaking Bad.
[00:29:20] Speaker C: Oh, yeah.
[00:29:21] Speaker B: But let me tell you, his wife has betrayal trauma, big time.
[00:29:25] Speaker C: Oh, yeah.
[00:29:25] Speaker B: Nobody seen it. It's. I'm not even going to go into it, but you know what I'm talking about.
[00:29:30] Speaker C: If you've seen it, absolutely. Another type of betrayal would be emotional betrayal. Now, here. Here's what that, like I'm sharing parts of my life that you think I'm only sharing with you. I'm sharing over here.
Let's say a married couple are going through a really hard time with one of their kids, but they've made the agreement they're only going to talk about this with each other and then come to find out. Wait, you were talking to so and so about this the whole time.
[00:30:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:30:02] Speaker C: Right. And I didn't know that. That another one is what I call spiritual betrayal, which is. Is. Is kind of nuanced in like, I thought we believed the same things, and now I'm finding out that you don't.
[00:30:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:30:21] Speaker C: You've been lying to me about that.
[00:30:23] Speaker B: That's a big one.
[00:30:24] Speaker C: That's a big one. That's a really big one. Yeah.
[00:30:29] Speaker B: So.
[00:30:29] Speaker C: So it's anytime that there's been a hidden breach in the assumed agreements among us, period. Period.
[00:30:40] Speaker B: I mean, it doesn't matter what the topic is. It doesn't matter what the relationship is. I guess it, you know, it doesn't even matter if you're in a romantic relationship, honestly. It can be like a business partner. Definitely a business partner. It can be like. You mentioned a pastor with, you know, their congregation. It can be something. I read also in some of the articles were elderly, like caregivers.
[00:31:08] Speaker C: Oh, sure.
[00:31:09] Speaker B: Yeah. So, you know, and then we name childhood, you know.
[00:31:12] Speaker C: Right. Yeah. I know of a case. I know of a case where there was a kid who, in high school, in his senior year, his two best friends just turned on him. Just turned on him over a girl. You know, of course it had to do with high school romance. And it devastated this kid. He went from confident and outgoing to just. Just a whole different person. And it took him years to recover from it.
[00:31:42] Speaker B: Well, and sometimes it's worse than that.
[00:31:45] Speaker C: Yes, yes.
[00:31:46] Speaker B: Because of the developmental, like you mentioned. What. I mean, what are ptsd, Post traumatic stress disorder, and betrayal trauma?
Are they treated the same way, would you say? I notice you, I think. Are you credentialed in emdr?
[00:32:04] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:32:04] Speaker B: We've had a couple of shows up specifically about emdr, and we have several people here at the counseling center. Credential. And I've only. I'm not going to say I've only. But it's mainly used with ptsd. Do you use it with betrayal trauma to help with that first stage of safety and stabilization?
[00:32:25] Speaker C: We. We can actually use it throughout the whole process through the. For safety and stabilization, also for some of the grief work and that. That deeper processing. For sure.
[00:32:36] Speaker B: Define emdr. For those listening that don't understand or listen to our shows before.
[00:32:41] Speaker C: Yeah.
Eye movement desensitization and reprocessing where, you know, through bilateral stimulation. Whether that's through, you know, waving your finger in front of someone's face. Left, right, left, right, left, right, right, or tapping left, right, left, right. I remember when I first heard about this, you know, 15, 20 years ago, I was like, what kind of witchcraft is this?
[00:33:00] Speaker B: The first show we did, I was like, skeptical. There was only one person here in town, a psychologist. And I was like, what quackery is this? Yes. And when she came in and explained it and left, I was like, oh, my gosh, this is like a miracle.
[00:33:14] Speaker C: It is, it is. So I went to a training to figure to be like, what is happening here? And at the training and you know how this goes. A lot of us therapists, when we go to a training, you experience the therapy your. I had developed a phobia around. Not like I had to unplug my coffee pot. Long story. Has to do with my granddad's house. Another session, vicarious trauma. 45 minutes of EMDR, it was gone. Anyway, we use EMDR. We absolutely use EMDR. But. So you were asking me the difference between betrayal trauma and ptsd, and. Right. So I'll get a little bit heady and clinical here, but. But not so much that I don't think listeners can follow. So with. With ptsd, one of the criteria is that the actual trauma had to have happened. What is it, six months? At least six months prior. Before that, you might be experiencing PTSD like symptoms. But if it's newer, we would call that an adjustment disorder. Right. With an adjustment disorder, it resolves, you know, after. After.
[00:34:18] Speaker B: Pretty quickly.
[00:34:18] Speaker C: Yeah, pretty quickly. It's like, okay, you know, I have some flashbacks and some trauma symptom afterwards, but it resolves within a few months. Well, here's one of the problems that we have with betrayal trauma. Well, with a lot of. A lot of our partners who are betrayed, their experience is one discovery, then another. Then three weeks later, they find another one. Then two months later, they find another one.
Later he relapses. So where do you start and stop the clock? So with a lot of people, it's hard to give them the PTSD diagnosis because they keep having additional traumas happen, happen.
Okay, now what am I going to do? I'm still going to treat it mostly like PTSD because the symptoms are there, the criteria is there. The one thing that is questionable is, you know, the DSM tells us that the trauma has to have been life threatening. Well, depending on how you argue life threatening. You know, what if you've been someone's partner for 30, 40 years and all of a sudden you. That sounds like you find out they've been sleeping with 40 other here in Alabama.
[00:35:23] Speaker B: That's grounds, right?
[00:35:25] Speaker C: That's right. There you go.
Yep.
[00:35:28] Speaker B: How does somebody Rebuild the trust. I mean, I know everybody who's listening. That will be the question. How do you ever rebuild the trust? Aren't you always on edge? They go to the grocery store and they don't come back for an hour. You know, that kind of thing.
[00:35:44] Speaker C: Well, it's certainly a process. And the first thing I'd say is you'll probably never have 100% trust again, I believe, which might be good.
I don't know that I want my wife to trust me 100. I don't know that I'm 100% trustworthy.
[00:35:57] Speaker B: There needs to be a little mystery.
[00:35:59] Speaker C: I mean, but yeah, and, and it's, and it's just being real. I'm a, I'm a human being and I make mistakes. Right. And I, Right. So, so I, so I often start by just setting the expectation, look, you're never going to get back to where you were. The old relationship. Relationship is dead. That old feeling of trust is dead. It's not going to come back.
But there can be healing and you can rebuild trust. Here's what we do. What we do is we. Initially I tell couples that I work with, I say, okay, this is a long, long term journey we're embarking on. But let me tell you, the first place we're trying to get to, the first mile marker, is something called a full, a therapeutic full disclosure or full therapeutic disclosure. And here's what we do is we work with the betraying partner over a period of about six to eight to 10 weeks and we help them write out everything they did. Oh, we help them remember. We added an appropriately clinically appropriate level of detail, a full disclosure of all their betrayal. Then in a safe therapeutic, a container, that person reads it to the betrayed partner who has been prepped and with some resources and that kind of thing, that partner gets to then ask clarifying questions. We spend an entire day on that.
We start at 9am and we might go until 4 or 5pm and then guess what? The next morning, 9am that dude takes a polygraph.
That's right. He takes a polygraph.
And it's not a forensic polygraph. There's no heat lamps. We're not sweating you out. There's no gotcha questions. It's therapeutic use of polygraph, but it is an external validation of his desire to be truthful that begins to lay a foundation that can be built on to reestablish trust. And now through empathy and perspective taking and, and the betraying partner learning how to do that validation work and to participate in the process of grief and meaning making a lot of trust can be built through that and through things like transparency and sharing passwords and respecting boundaries and that kind of stuff as.
[00:38:24] Speaker B: Well, because it could really go south quickly. And you've seen this, and I have too, in couples where the person who has betrayed the partner, they. It's just like they can never do enough.
And so that other person who has been betrayed always holds that against them, basically, that.
[00:38:51] Speaker C: That can definitely happen. And here's what I think is often going on there. I think what's happening there is they never actually established safety and stability after the discovery. It was never actually done. Probably. There was never a full disclosure.
[00:39:06] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:39:07] Speaker C: Right. Which means that. That that betrayed partner is going, do I really know everything? You're probably still. You're still probably lying to me, and I don't even know it. So if we can eliminate that, if we can turn all those question marks into periods, as one of my team members, Kathy Reynolds, likes to say, turn those question marks into periods that can go a long way to calm, calming the brain down, calming the nervous system now so we can actually do some healing work, get to a place of forgiveness.
[00:39:32] Speaker B: Well, I've got so much going through my head right now, so many questions that we'll never get to because we only have a few more minutes. Katherine's cueing me for the. Let's take the last break, and then when we come back, let's talk about some resources. But I did have a question about any cultural differences you've seen that might. Might make the treatment a little bit different since you are in Houston, the third largest city in our country, I believe.
[00:39:56] Speaker C: Sure. Yeah.
[00:39:58] Speaker B: So we'll be right back. You're listening to brain matters on 90.7, the capstone.
[00:40:12] Speaker C: WVUAFM Tuscaloosa.
[00:40:14] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling and no relationship is created between the show host or guests and any listeners. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective counties crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
[00:40:52] Speaker B: Hey, you're back listening to brain matters on 90.7, the capstone. I'm BJ Gunther. We're talking tonight about betrayal trauma, and My guest is Dr. Jake Porter. He's a licensed professional counselor in private practice, a pretty large private practice, actually, in Houston, Texas, called Daring Ventures. And if you're interested, go to his website, daringventures.com and we've just. I've tried to hit all the high points that I can, but.
And one other thing I wanted to ask you. I wanted to talk about culture a little bit like, have you seen. Have you ever had couples from other cultures that. This has. It's different.
[00:41:31] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:41:32] Speaker B: And so you've had to kind of treat it different.
But also as a counselor, as a therapist, have you ever felt this betrayal by a client? I know that's a. That's down a rabbit hole.
[00:41:44] Speaker C: Oh, that's okay. I like rabbits. Rabbits.
Well, have I ever felt. Yeah, I have felt this from clients.
I think I've. I've built up a little more of a boundary or guard, you know, probably by now. By now. But I can remember early on, especially when I didn't have all the best boundaries, and I was constantly. I reduced my fees and I'd go the extra mile. I'm staying with you till 9:30 at night. And all. All that kind of stuff I used to do before I had kids and when I was single.
Can't do that now, but back when I used to do that. And then, and then what would happen? What would. What would happen is the client. Something would go wrong with the couple, and instead of holding their. Their partner accountable, they'd take it out on me.
[00:42:33] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Triangulation.
[00:42:34] Speaker C: Triangulation. You didn't do this. You should have known that. You should have known that. Oh, it turns out he's a narcissist. You should have known that. Whatever. And, and you know, now I. I don't want to dismiss that. I still get those kind of emails, and I don't dismiss them. I want to learn where I can. I know I'm not perfect, but I also. Almost every time, if I hang with them long enough, I find out, you know what.
[00:42:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:42:59] Speaker C: There was something going on between them.
[00:43:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:43:02] Speaker C: And it was just easy. I was an easy place to put all that.
[00:43:05] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely.
[00:43:06] Speaker C: That's okay.
[00:43:07] Speaker B: What about the different couples you've seen from different cultures?
[00:43:11] Speaker C: Yeah. So I've seen differences in terms of both gender and culture.
So with gender, and I want to say this is anecdotal. There needs to be. So if any, you know, aspiring doctoral candidates are listening or, you know, doctoral.
[00:43:25] Speaker B: Students, research, I can.
[00:43:27] Speaker C: That's right. Absolutely. And I'd help. I'll help you.
There needs to be more research on gender differences, but here's, here's, here's anecdotally, what I'll say is that women are more likely to.
Or, I'm sorry, men are more likely to sort of try to bypass. Try to sweep it under the rug. I think a lot of that has to do with cultural scripts.
What it means to be a man who's been cheated on versus what it means to be a wolf woman who's been cheated on. I'm not trying to say it's easier for anybody. It's not easy no matter who you are. I just think that there. I've seen a big difference. It's so much harder to get a betrayed man to come and participate in this process than a betrayed woman. I mean, if, if, if the statistics are correct.
[00:44:25] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:44:25] Speaker C: Yeah. If the statistics are correct, it's almost equal in terms of, of men and women who cheat. Okay. But I guarantee you 98% of our couples, we see men who cheat and women who've been betrayed. Well, that's not reflective of the population, but that is reflective of the people who. The couples who seek treatment seek therapy.
[00:44:46] Speaker B: That's right. I find that true too, in my private practice, and I've had it since before I started working here. I still maintain it. And you know, the couples I have seen. You're right. You're go. Usually the, the, the woman is going to contact me first.
[00:45:02] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, We. I've learned a long time ago I mark it to the. To the wives. Yep, I mark it. But if you got a thread needle here, I'm kind of, you know, revealing how the sausage is made. You got to market to the wives in a way that when they forward that, that YouTube video to their husband.
[00:45:18] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:45:19] Speaker C: They'll be kind of maybe on board with it.
[00:45:21] Speaker B: It's a fine line.
So what are some resources for listeners? Do you have any besides your website that I've already.
[00:45:30] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:45:31] Speaker B: Given out daringventures.com. what are some either apps, books, YouTube channels. Help us out here.
[00:45:38] Speaker C: So I do have a book and my other website, if you go to drjakeporter.com you can actually download my book for free. It's called Breaking Barriers Building Bridging the Couple Centered Recovery Model for Lasting Connection After Betrayal. It's a tiny little book. It does have a resource section in the back with links to all kinds of videos that go into more depth. But it's. I give it away because I want people to know that in most cases there is a way to save the relationship. If both people want to do that. So you can go to drjakeporter.com and get that book for free. Also, I have hours and hours and hours, hours of free content on my YouTube channel, Dr. Jake Porter. You can find me there at Dr. Jake Porter. And my Instagram and Facebook.
And I have a podcast also called Betrayal Recovery Radio.
[00:46:30] Speaker B: There you go.
[00:46:31] Speaker C: And. And again. Hours and hours and hours. And I have great guests on there. Set up a lot like, like your show here, Vijay. Just bring people on and interview them. But it all the people I interview are trained and experts in betrayal trauma.
[00:46:46] Speaker B: It's cool. That's cool. I can't believe we've been doing this for as long as we have. I mean, I think we celebrated was it last year, 200th episode. That was a fun show. Brought some, you know, people have been on before and who helped support the show. I'll say it like that. Thank you so much for being on this. Went by fast. And this is fast. This is amazing. This is a fascinating topic. I'm going to send an email out to my colleagues to be sure and listen to us next week. Even though we consider ourselves generalists here at the counseling center, we do see so many students who come to us first with trauma. And I can see where. And we do see couples. A lot of people don't realize that if you're both enrolled here at the University of Alabama, you're eligible to be seen as a couple here. And a lot of students do not know that. Undergrads and graduate students. So little pub for our center there.
[00:47:42] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:47:42] Speaker B: Thank you so much. Stay on the line. I want to ask you a few questions when we go off the air.
[00:47:47] Speaker C: Thank you for having me.
[00:47:48] Speaker B: No problem. Don't forget, our shows are recorded and podcasted to Apple Podcasts. They're also recorded. They're also put on audioboom.com and voices ua edu. Just type in Brain Matters and you'll find some of our past shows. There's also a link to Voices UA Edu on the Counseling Center's website at Counseling UA Edu and also on Apple Podcast if you want to look me up there. It's Brain Matters and my logo is a hot pink brain, just in case you can't find it. I like to thank a few people who've made the show possible.
Our executive director. Sorry it's been a long day, y'all. Our assistant, our executive director, Dr. Greg Vanderwaal, and my producer, Catherine Howell, who is also my colleague out in the real world. Katherine Ratchford is Our student who edits the show for WBUA and the WBUA staff is wonderful. My guest tonight, Dr. Jake Quarter. Don't forget, we're on again next week and our show topic is one that's been requested by several students and I see a lot of students who have this issue, how to make and keep friends in college. So that should be an interesting show. Don't forget we're on, like I said, the same time, same place. And thanks again for listening to Brain Matters. Have a good night.
[00:49:16] Speaker A: This show was not intended as a substitute for professional counseling. Further, the views, opinions and conclusions expressed by the show hosts or their guests are their own and not necessarily those of the University of Alabama, its officers or trustees. Any views, opinions or conclusions shared on the show do not create a relationship between the host or any guest and any listener, and such a relationship should never be inferred. If you feel you're in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, please contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective county's Crisis service Hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
