Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling and no relationship is created between the show host or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective counties crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emerg.
[00:00:40] Speaker B: It's 6 o' clock and time again for Brain Matters, the official radio show of the UA Counseling Center. We are broadcasting from the campus of the University of Alabama. Good evening. My name is Dr. B.J. guenther. I'm the host of the show along with my colleague and producer Katherine Howell. And in case you don't know, this show is about mental and physical health issues that affect college students and in particular UA students. So you can listen to us each Tuesday at 6pm on 90.7 FM or you can listen online at WVUAFM UA. Edu. You can also download. There's several apps you can download. I prefer my tuner radio app and just type in WVUAFM 90.7 and you should find us on there. Just type in Brain Matters. Also, if you have any ideas, we're probably halfway through maybe a little over halfway through the semester, but for doing shows, we only do shows in the fall and in the spring we don't do them in the summer. So we've got several shows already planned out for the rest of this semester. But I'm going to need show topic ideas for the spring semester. So if you're listening and you have an idea or we haven't covered something you want us to cover, email those topic ideas to me@brain mattersradiobuafm ua edu and of course I'll consider using your show topic. I say this every week. You know, there are some topics we need to cover. I think we need to cover every year. And it may be depression, it may be test anxiety, but don't think that just because we've covered it in the past that we wouldn't be willing to do it again. Because I just feel like there are some topics that are that important, especially with college mental health and the trends change, you know, with college mental health. So once again, that's Frame Matters Radio at wvuafm ua Edu and I'll try to remember. Catherine's going to help me try to remember to give that address out after each break tonight, we're tackling a topic that sits right at the crossroads of law, mental health and compassion. The the title of today's show is Balancing Compassion and Defending Students with Mental Health Challenges. And when students face legal trouble, especially those struggling with mental health issues, the situation can be incredibly complex. And how do we hold individuals accountable while also recognizing the need for understanding, support and treatment? And that's what we'll be exploring today. Joining me is Eric Snow. Eric is the Let me get this straight. The chief deputy public defender for Tuscaloosa county who has spent years advocating for individuals who often don't have a voice in the legal system. And Eric brings firsthand knowledge and experience defending students and others who find themselves navigating both the court system and the challenges of mental health. And we'll talk about how mental health impacts the justice process, what reforms maybe are still needed, and how communities, including our university, can work toward a system that's both fair and compassionate. Eric, thank you for being on the show. You've been on the show before, and it's been a while. It's been, I think, before even Covid. Covid, don't you think it was.
[00:03:45] Speaker C: It was quite a few years ago. And thank you, bj, for having me. I'm always looking forward to speaking to you, particularly about this topic.
[00:03:51] Speaker B: Well, and I don't know how you have the time. I know you're a busy person. Tell everybody I gave you an introduction, but tell everyone listening a little bit about your background, your role as the chief deputy public defender for our county, and, you know, the kinds of cases you typically handle.
[00:04:10] Speaker C: Well, I'll start with my background. So I have been practicing criminal defense work for 28 years here in Tuscaloosa County. So I have dealt with any case, really, that you want to describe. At some point in my career, I've dealt with them. I've dealt with many cases in the city courts and district courts, certainly everything up to and including the most serious charges we can have in Alabama, which is capital murder.
And that information and working with my clients has helped me to get a lot more familiar with the mental health process.
So in addition to the work that I do, I also will teach other lawyers about the process of going through a mental evaluation for their clients, some telltale signs and things to be looking for that it may be an issue and to try to give them pointers on working through the system.
And while here at the public defender's office, as chief assistant, I help oversee the 12. Right now we're still looking to hire another couple attorneys. Attorneys that we have working for us and their representation of the clients and the people here in Tuscas County.
[00:05:18] Speaker B: That seems like a big feat, because our county. I don't know how many cases are on the. Is it the docket? Is that what it's called? The docket?
[00:05:29] Speaker C: Yes, ma', am, the docket.
[00:05:30] Speaker B: You can tell my dad's an attorney.
How many cases are on the docket? And is it inappropriate to ask how far behind we are or how that ranks amongst the state or even the country?
[00:05:47] Speaker C: Well, I think as a whole, justice moves a little slower in Alabama for a number of different reasons.
Resources, this time, management.
Obviously, I will say the system still has not recovered from the COVID shutdown.
I think that still affects things as a whole, But I do think that the resources affect the process of a case.
And just frankly, the number of cases.
We deal with a lot of charges that could be appropriately handled in other places and should be appropriately handled in other places.
[00:06:30] Speaker B: I imagine sometimes it's hard to know where they go. Almost having to decide where they go. I mean, I don't know what I'm talking about. What am I saying? But, you know, knowing where they go or to delegate.
[00:06:43] Speaker C: Well, and a lot of times I.
The police officers are making a case, and when they're looking at a case, their inclination is to, you know, make a charge. But oftentimes we are dealing with cases where a person could benefit from just getting more of a help instead of getting a charge, or it. It's a situation that really should be in the civil court instead of the criminal court system.
[00:07:07] Speaker B: Yeah, I can understand that. Sorry, I don't mean to put you. I didn't mean to put you on the spot. I really didn't know how to ask that. How. How did you first become interested in public defense? And what motivates you to keep doing this work?
Well.
[00:07:25] Speaker C: So I went to law school way too many years ago with the intention of going to sports agency. I had quite a few friends who were playing baseball, and they needed help, representation.
So my intention was actually to go into sports medicine.
[00:07:42] Speaker B: Huh.
[00:07:43] Speaker C: Then I. Sports agency.
[00:07:45] Speaker B: Agency, yeah. Like Jerry Maguire.
[00:07:47] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:07:49] Speaker B: Who was. Was he a sports agent? He was a sports agent, wasn't he?
[00:07:53] Speaker C: He was.
[00:07:54] Speaker B: Okay. But you were going to represent.
I get what you're saying.
[00:07:57] Speaker C: And they basically do the same thing.
Negotiate for my clients to their doing their contracts.
But whenever I decided, when I started law school, I volunteered here at the public defender's office, and I helped out on A capital murder charge where a young man was accused of capital murder for a shooting that happened in a car here in Tuscaloosa.
And there were these two ladies who were working on that case, and the dedication and the heart and the just determination that those two young ladies had to fight for that man's life.
I say the bug bit me, and I still haven't recovered. So after that experience, I knew that that was what I wanted to do.
[00:08:45] Speaker B: Help me out here. What is it? What is the. Do we have this here? And I don't know what the organization is, if it's even an organization, but it's maybe at our law school here on campus, they have this. Where students can participate in doing research to try to help people who are incarcerated possibly unfairly be freed. What is that called?
[00:09:13] Speaker C: The Innocence Project.
[00:09:14] Speaker B: Yes. Thank you.
[00:09:15] Speaker C: We do. We do have some attorneys here, some law students here who may work with the Innocence Project, but it's actually based in a. Based outside of Tuscaloosa's area. And the Southern Poverty. Southern Poverty Law will have, you know, some input and work with the Innocence Project as well.
And those are for situations mainly for people charged with capital murder.
[00:09:39] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:09:40] Speaker C: And who are looking at the death penalty and.
Or life in prison, those type of extended periods of time in prison.
[00:09:48] Speaker B: What is the percentage. And just guesstimate, if you can, what's the percentage of cases in Tuscaloosa county that involve college students?
[00:09:58] Speaker C: So now the question would be, do you want to say the ones involved college students of potential victims or them as the alleged perpetrator.
[00:10:09] Speaker B: Defendant. Okay, help me with the.
The lingo here. The defendant. I want to. I want to look at the defendant.
What's the percentage, would you say?
[00:10:20] Speaker C: I'd say it's a very small percentage, but it is a very niche percentage because the charges usually involve some type of drugs or alcohol, and inevitably, it is some type of drug or alcohol which causes some type of a mental health condition to worsen or to flare up.
Unfortunately, you have 40,000 people coming into a town at one time. You're going to have people coming in with their own challenges.
[00:10:52] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:10:53] Speaker C: And those challenges, without having the regiment, the regimented routine that they would have had at home, those challenges have a way of raising their head and being a lot worse.
[00:11:05] Speaker B: Yeah. From. From what we hear, you know, more and more, there is an intersection between mental health and the criminal justice system. So from your experience, how often do you see mental health challenges playing a role in the cases that you personally handle?
[00:11:26] Speaker C: I would say it's upwards of about 70%.
[00:11:29] Speaker B: I know I would have guessed pretty high.
[00:11:32] Speaker C: So not necessarily the topic, but Alabama's evaluation of a person's mental health in a criminal justice system is so very narrow that we have people who are very seriously mentally ill.
[00:11:50] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:11:51] Speaker C: But who still qualify as competent defendants for the purposes of their case.
Really though, those individuals literally miss PJ I've had a client that would talk to the walls and have a conversation with the wall.
[00:12:06] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:12:07] Speaker C: And because that client understood what he was charged with, because that client could say that I was his lawyer and what I was supposed to do, because it could give those basics information and because at the time it happened, the doctor who evaluated him said that he formed an intent and. And did it.
[00:12:26] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:12:26] Speaker C: He was found competent.
[00:12:28] Speaker B: So it's a fine line.
[00:12:30] Speaker C: It is a fine line and it is a.
It is a very low hanging threshold to find somebody competent. Too low in my opinion.
[00:12:41] Speaker B: Hullo. How do you. You mentioned the doctor who assesses.
How do you find Dr. To like, is it easy? How do you trust that person's assessment? I know we're getting into like some muddy water here. I'm sure if you don't want to answer, I totally can respect that. It's just this is so foreign to me. I don't know how this happens. I'm not really. The only time I've ever been involved in this system is when I had to testify for my clients in my private practice one time and it was a child custody case and it was scary.
But not competent.
[00:13:19] Speaker C: You know, I don't mind at all.
So the way the process works is that if we the attorneys and a lot of times this is the thing that hangs turnings up attorney will say, well my client don't want to mention an evaluation. They don't want to have it questioned. Well, unfortunately under the law this is one of the things that it doesn't matter what your client wants.
You as the attorney are the one has to make that determination based upon your ability to represent the client.
[00:13:50] Speaker B: Does it matter?
[00:13:50] Speaker C: The charge does not matter. The charge. Okay, okay, let me qualify. It does need to be a felony offense or the charge would need to be in the circuit court of Tuscaloosa of the county because district court and city court judges do not have the power to order a mental evaluation.
But if an attorney decides my client needs a mental evaluation, well then they file a motion with the court, the judge approves it, and then that order goes to the Alabama Department of Mental Health and then the Alabama Departmental Health will assign that particular client to a doctor.
[00:14:35] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:14:36] Speaker C: And that doctor will do the initial evaluation.
[00:14:40] Speaker B: Okay.
Do you have many people. And I know, Catherine, I'm sorry, you're holding your hands up for us to go to break. Give me just one more question. Do you have many clients who argue with you, you know, over wanting to have that mental evaluation or not?
[00:15:01] Speaker C: Absolutely. I bet I knew what the answer.
[00:15:04] Speaker B: Was going to be. Yeah.
[00:15:06] Speaker C: As I tell people all the time, someone who truly is mentally ill feels that they're fine. It's the rest of us that actually are not. Right.
[00:15:11] Speaker B: That's right. That's right. I bet you're good at convincing them, though, you know, with your demeanor.
Yeah, that's a compliment, Eric.
[00:15:19] Speaker C: Well, thank you.
I was gonna say it's a challenge.
[00:15:25] Speaker B: Yes, it is a challenge. And I'm on the other end. Kathryn is, too. We're on the other side of that sometimes. And so we understand the challenge, you know, that's there, so. Well, we're gonna take our first break. We'll be right back. You're listening to Brain Matters on that the capstone.
[00:15:51] Speaker C: Wvuafm, Tuscaloosa.
[00:15:53] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling, and no relationship is created between the show host or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective county's crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
[00:16:30] Speaker B: You're back with Send to brain matters on 90.7. The capstone. I'm Dr. B.J. guenther, and if you have an idea for a show topic, email those to me@brain mattersradiobuafm.ua Ed, I'll consider your show topic idea. And sometimes I get so many I can't pick because they're so good.
But tonight, we're talking about balancing justice and compassion, defending students with mental health challenges. And my guest is Eric Snow. Eric is the chief deputy. Is that the correct title, Eric? The Chief Deputy Public Defender for Tuscaloosa County.
[00:17:05] Speaker C: Oh, yes, ma'. Am. That's fine.
[00:17:06] Speaker B: Okay. You said assistant a minute ago, but chief deputy sounds Chief assistant.
[00:17:11] Speaker C: Yeah, this chief assistant public defender. But wow, I answer anything.
[00:17:15] Speaker B: Okay, well, you've been doing it for so long, you know, what are some of the biggest challenges that students or young adults face with Their mental health struggles, you know, that lead them into contact with the justice system. Is it drugs and alcohol?
[00:17:32] Speaker C: Well, I would say it's drugs and alcohol and basically peer pressure. Because even though it is a lot more accepted in today's society for someone to be in treatment, be in therapy, there's. It is still a stigma that goes along with it that is very hard to overcome. And particularly there are certain segments of our society where if you are in therapy, they view you as weaker, they view as not as strong, which I don't think is at all true.
So the intersection of drugs, alcohol, peer pressure, and again, a lot of the college kids that you see involves some type of rejection sometimes as far as, you know, some type of a romantic relationship, feeling like they've been rejected in some way, and that leads them to act out and get them then to see me or somebody like me.
[00:18:31] Speaker B: Yeah, let's take. And our. The first email question that I'm looking at, I'm reading over it right now, is, has something to do with this. So let me just ask you, Mr. Snow. The person says if a person is actively experiencing symptoms and using illicit substances or alcohol to manage his or her symptoms and demonstrates irrational behavior by hitting a nursing professional. Wow. I didn't see that coming.
How does the justice system help the individual? Individual?
Wow.
[00:19:05] Speaker C: So that I will be very friendly with you, Ms. B.J. that sounds like a very specific, factually based question.
[00:19:12] Speaker B: Yes, it does.
[00:19:13] Speaker C: That I think I represent someone like him like that right now.
So really.
So the first thing I will say is that in any situation of that nature, I would have to see whether or not the client really needs to have a mental evaluation.
And if so, then I'll follow that path. If the client does not need to have a mental evaluation, There is a program here in Tuscaloosa that was ran by Judge Almond.
He is retiring. So it's going to be picked up, I think, by Judge May. It's called Mental Health Court.
So it may be an avenue to try to get that client into, to go through that process, try to help get the case resolved. Now, if we're talking in immediacy, I've got a phone call from clients, family. A client, you know, hit the nurse at, you know, wherever, somewhere and, you know, needs immediate care.
Well, I'm going to refer them to either try to get them in North Harbor.
[00:20:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:17] Speaker C: Or a program called Hope Point.
[00:20:20] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:20:20] Speaker C: Which I really cannot say enough about. Say enough about because that they fill a role that I think is very vital, especially to the Public and also to the college community, I think is very viable. And I would absolutely think that as much as possible, the students at UA need to know about Hope Point because it's very useful and helpful.
[00:20:43] Speaker B: It has been a game changer here for the counseling center, you know, over the years, because I've been here over 20 years, and it has totally changed everything for the better, I think, for. And like you said, for the immediacy of need for the students when they need it, for whatever reason, risk factors.
What about, you know, how well do you think the current legal system recognizes or accommodates mental health issues, you know, when it comes to young offenders?
[00:21:13] Speaker C: Well, I certainly think that the pendulum is swinging into that direction, and people understand that it's more and more of an ongoing issue.
Tuscaloosa, the city of Tuscaloosa in the county is unique because with this, having Taylor Hardin, with us, having Bryce, with those being the Taylor Harden being the only criminally. The only hospital for the criminally insane in the entire state.
[00:21:40] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:21:41] Speaker C: And the kind of. The coming together of the students and community.
There is a mental health issue as a whole being.
Police departments are starting to have mental health officers who will be available for consultation with an officer who goes to a scene if they feel like there's a mental health issue. There's an officer respond.
[00:22:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:22:07] Speaker C: So I think that is a response to knowing that mental health is becoming more of an issue.
And then, of course, we have the places like Hope Point that have been opened up, which.
One of the aspects of that is if an officer speaks to me, feels like I am in a crisis, the officer can just drop me off there and no questions asked me just to get help.
[00:22:32] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:22:32] Speaker C: And so those. I do believe that there's some avenues there and resources there as a whole. I don't mind saying. I'm very quick to say our state as a whole does not fund mental health the way it should. I know it. Years ago, they decided that they wanted to go a different approach.
And I absolutely think that it is not funded as it should be as a whole, across the state.
[00:22:58] Speaker B: Agreed. You know, when I first started working here, 20 something. 20 about 20 years ago, I can remember going out on a call. You know, I didn't come. I never worked on a college campus, so it was kind of like throwing me to the wolves. I'm not gonna lie. And I. I remember going out. We used to go out with the police, and sometimes if it was off campus, we would meet tpd. So it really did look like an episode of cops. At one point, I can remember being in the parking lot down on Skyland at America's Thrift Store, where it is now. I can't remember what was there. And meeting up with all these police officers and just thinking, oh, my gosh, you know, being scared, terrified, nervous. And I remember one of the police officers mentioning, I wish we had the mental health officer that we had. And they used to have a mental health officer then. And I don't know what happened. Probably funding. It was probably funding. And so for years there was not, if I'm correct, there was not a mental health officer. You probably remember who it was.
And so it's just kind of like winging it. It felt like it was winging it to get someone a mental health professional.
And I do remember when they brought back the mental health officer and it was a relief.
[00:24:22] Speaker C: And. And they are a game changer, big time. Yeah. If they use them.
I do. I do certainly believe that there are many cases where the person charged would be better served by going to north harbor, by going to Hope Point, by trying to get a treatment placement, than to go to the county jail. Jail.
And I will, I know, I will say, just to give you an example, our. Our current county jail and has many faults. I'll. You know, it absolutely it does. But they are in the process of building a new wing.
And in response to having the mental health crisis, I believe it's going to be 20 individual rooms that they're going to have for people who have suicidal ideation, people who have those mental health concerns. And my understanding is those rooms are going to be on a constant supervision.
[00:25:23] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:25:25] Speaker C: You know, electronically, not by somebody saying they're looking at them all the time, but electronically.
[00:25:31] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:25:31] Speaker C: So I think that speaks to the fact that the. The is an epidemic. And the question is, what's going to happen?
[00:25:37] Speaker B: And hopefully people are taking this more seriously, you know, than before, you know, sidebar.
I'm going to go down this rabbit hole, but can you speak to commitment issues at all? How much are people being committed now? I don't really hear the talk of that anymore. And I can remember one case here where the person. I felt like the person was eligible and a danger to our community.
And it was really hard to get them. Almost impossible, I'm going to say, to get them committed. Have I stepped in something, Eric? Sorry.
[00:26:12] Speaker C: Well, no, but you're. You're going to get me in trouble now.
[00:26:15] Speaker B: No, I'm sorry.
[00:26:16] Speaker C: So there are two different avenues for commitment in Alabama.
I'll speak on the one I had the least experience on that is through a probate commitment, a civil commitment that gives the probate judge the authority to commit somebody. A family member has to sign the paperwork saying the person is a danger to themselves or others.
[00:26:38] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:26:39] Speaker C: A doctor has to sign off saying that they concur.
And then the probate judge reviews the record, decides what to do.
[00:26:45] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:26:46] Speaker C: And the probate judge has a variety of different treatment options available to him, from residential to halfway houses to community based.
It's. It's. He has a variety of things to use in the criminal system.
[00:27:02] Speaker B: It's different, isn't it?
[00:27:03] Speaker C: It's different when we have a client that's found NGRI not guilty because of mental disease or defect or a client who is not competent and is not going to be restored competent. Or a client who just needs to be competency trained.
They.
For males, they have to go through Taylor Harden.
[00:27:29] Speaker B: Yes. Okay.
[00:27:31] Speaker C: For females, they have to go to Bryce.
[00:27:34] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah.
[00:27:35] Speaker C: Those are the main two places for the entire state of Alabama.
[00:27:40] Speaker B: And I would imagine. I'm sorry. I would imagine it would be rare for the college student population.
[00:27:46] Speaker C: It would be rare. But it has happened.
[00:27:48] Speaker B: Yeah, it has happened.
[00:27:50] Speaker C: Once they get here, they're in the system here.
And so that's the problem we have is that a lot of times they bring their challenges with them.
[00:27:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:28:00] Speaker C: And then they become here. But you have to look at the entire state of Alabama is feeding down into the 200 beds that Taylor Harden has.
[00:28:13] Speaker B: Good grief.
[00:28:15] Speaker C: So we are, right now, we've got clients waiting 18 to 24 months to even get into Taylor Harden. And most of those clients are sitting in the county jails waiting to go.
[00:28:31] Speaker B: Yeah.
Did they get treatment at the county jail?
[00:28:36] Speaker C: Yeah, our county jail does have a doctor that comes and treats them.
It's not the, you know, does a good job being there. It's not the constant treatment they would receive if they were at the medical hospital.
But they do get medication. They do get seen. They do. They do have. And they have social workers who work at the jail as well, who work with them to try to meet the needs as far as treatment is concerned.
[00:29:03] Speaker B: Okay.
You know, the. The title of today's show talks about balancing justice and compassion. And in your view, what does that balance look like, you know, in practice for someone in your position?
[00:29:19] Speaker C: It's an un. Is taking people who may be at the worst point in their. In their life, may have committed something that they have that they regret or that they may not even know they regret.
[00:29:33] Speaker B: Or spontaneous. Yeah.
[00:29:35] Speaker C: But it's, it's taking that and giving them an opportunity to get help to try and not be in that same place again.
I can, I can take a case to trial, I can beat the case. Done it. But if the client walks out and commits the same offense three times after I beat that case.
[00:29:56] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:29:57] Speaker C: Then what have I accomplished?
So I want to try. Here at our office, we try to approach the client as a whole.
It's a client centered representation.
So we try to impact a change in the client's life, if at all possible, to help them be not back to see us again.
[00:30:18] Speaker B: Yes. And to contributing to the community in general.
Okay, let's take our next break and when we come back, we've got some more questions. I don't know what they look like, so who knows? Here we go. We'll be right back. You're listening to brain matters on 90.7 the Capstone.
[00:30:46] Speaker C: WVUAFM, Tuscaloosa.
[00:30:49] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling and no relationship is created between the show host or guests and any listeners.
If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective counties crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
[00:31:25] Speaker B: Hey, you back. Listening to brain matters on 90.7 the Capstone. I'm BJ Guenther. We're talking tonight with Eric Snow. He is the chief assistant public defender here in Tuscaloosa county. And our topic is balancing justice and Compassion, Defending students with Mental Health challenges. Don't forget, if you have a topic title show suggestion, send those to me at brain mattersradiovuafm ua.edu I always forget to give this, this address out, so thank you, Catherine.
Eric, let me ask you, do you. Is this a. How do I say this? Are people skeptical about having compassion? You know, like they're either on one side or the other is the way I kind of see it. Is it controversial?
Sometimes when you introduce yourself, do you get backlash? I don't know any other way to ask that.
[00:32:21] Speaker C: So let me break that up into two answers.
Compassion as a whole.
People individually can have compassion.
Our communities sometimes or the large gatherings can be a little bit more disheartened and a little bit harder of heart.
[00:32:45] Speaker B: Just hardened. Yeah.
[00:32:47] Speaker C: Because they want to see people punished. They want to see you Know, if you've done something wrong, they want to see you punished. And sometimes there's not that room to say there's a motive or reason for this. If we can fix that motive for that reason, then we can help the person.
[00:33:05] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:33:06] Speaker C: And a lot of times, frankly, it takes impacting on the individual person's life for them to realize that, oh, this is what people were going through. This is what people were talking about. About.
[00:33:18] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:33:19] Speaker C: This is what they want to deal with.
Nas to myself, my other. My fellow defense attorneys have my office here.
Is there backlash?
Sometimes you get the question of how can you defend somebody?
[00:33:35] Speaker B: Oh, yes. Oh, yes.
[00:33:37] Speaker C: How can you do that?
Those types. I mean, I've got it for my family for.
[00:33:42] Speaker B: I was gonna say, I've asked my dad before. I was just talking with somebody earlier who knew I was going to have you on, and I mentioned, I remember asking my dad, like, how can you defend someone? And that's under the assumption that the person was guilty. And he had to explain that to me. Everybody has a right to due process, you know, and you're not guilty until you have the trial, you know, so he had to break it down for me. And I guess that's what you have to do too, with your family.
[00:34:13] Speaker C: It is. Plus, you know, frankly, I tell my family, it doesn't matter to me whether the person's guilty or innocent.
Everybody has. Has right to be defended.
[00:34:22] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:34:23] Speaker C: If you give that up, what do we stop?
[00:34:25] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:34:26] Speaker C: Because if you leave it to one individual person to decide if somebody's guilty or innocence, that's way too much power.
[00:34:32] Speaker B: I know. And I think you have to make that decision when you go to law school, don't you?
[00:34:37] Speaker C: Well, not when you go. One of the good things about, you know, going to law school, even if you take financial law the entire way, if you pass the bar and you decide that you want to go and be a tort lawyer, you seek people you can.
So if I was to have decided I wanted a sports agency and I took a couple of classes on several classes on contracts, but when I came out, I decided to go into criminal defense, then that's certainly my route.
[00:35:10] Speaker B: Yeah. So would have been different.
[00:35:13] Speaker C: So going to law school itself, you don't have to necessarily pick a path. Path, you certainly can if you know what you want to do. If, you know, you want to do criminal defense work or, you know, you want to be involved in, frankly, grassroots, trying to help out with the community, you can take classes to help you out. But it doesn't have to be that way.
[00:35:36] Speaker B: Okay, this question, this email question is it's, it's a little bit detailed. How have court and penal systems adjusted over the years to adequately address the needs and rights of criminal, criminally indicted or convicted individuals dealing with mental health issues?
[00:35:58] Speaker C: Well, frankly, I don't think that they have adjusted enough.
As I said earlier, the state of Alabama as a whole, I think very.
The way that they fund and deal with mental health issues I think is very lacking. And of course these are my opinions, not the opinions of anybody else, but I think it's very lacking.
Years ago, the state of Alabama had three different facilities set up to handle the criminally mentally ill. They shut two of them down and left everything with one. So now we're limited to who can go there and how long it takes to get them there.
I do think, as I said earlier, that the growth of places like Hope Point, because it is one of, I think planned six across the state of state of Alabama, the growth of or the use of mental health officers, then in the day to day activities and interacting with the police and the public and the education of the police force of the issues of mental health is positive. And I think that's a move in the right direction. But as a whole, I do not think that we are addressing mental health adequately in the state.
[00:37:13] Speaker B: No.
What about advocating for accountability, you know, while also ensuring that someone struggling with mental illness gets the help they need rather than just punishment?
[00:37:27] Speaker C: Well, that's part of what we try to do. Whenever we are talking to our clients and we're trying to see where they come from, we want to meet the clients where they're at, and we want to be able to try to see what's the best way to try to help them.
And if that's a mental evaluation, if that's a referral to a, a outpatient drug and alcohol treatment program, if it's to refer to an inpatient dual diagnosis program, those are the things that we want to try to be able to see how we can try to best help the client.
And the dual diagnosis inpatient treatment programs, they are rare, those that when I say dual diagnosis, kind of define it. It's a treatment program that deals with not only the drug addiction, but also deals with the mental health aspects of the client's problem.
Because those clients that have the drug addiction with mental health issues are usually self medicating.
[00:38:26] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:38:27] Speaker C: Because they can't afford their own medication.
And so if you can get them the help from their mental health issues, usually that Cuts out the addiction and the. The issues and problems they have in connection to their addiction.
[00:38:46] Speaker B: Wow. Okay. So, yeah, back when I started, dual diagnosis programs were more prevalent.
[00:38:54] Speaker C: Well, it is a. We have several programs that we use around the state, several residential programs.
But as with a lot of things there, some programs are much better than others.
[00:39:06] Speaker B: And they're costly, too. They can be costly.
[00:39:08] Speaker C: Yeah, they're costly. And the courts.
I often have to explain to clients, the courts do not pay for a residential program. No, the courts do not pay for an assessment that falls to the client and the client's family.
[00:39:26] Speaker B: Oh. And that can get really expensive. Very expensive. Another email question. How do you differentiate between a crime that was committed intentionally versus the result of a diagnosis, mental illness? Does that make sense?
[00:39:43] Speaker C: It does.
[00:39:43] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:39:44] Speaker C: And I think that that would go toward the interaction between the client and also their attorney and what records and information that we can get about their history.
Because if you sit down with someone and you're having a conversation with them, they may. There are certain telltale signs and things for you to keep an eye out for whenever you're discussing with them. Do they have any type of ideation that seems to be. Be completely off target? Do they seem to be responding to some type of stimuli that's not there?
Do they have a history of mental health treatment? And a lot of times family members will tell you, and it's not take away from it about, you know, clients being in special ed or being diagnosed with ADHD and things of that nature. And yes, those may be a symptom, but those things in themselves don't necessarily indicate a mental health issue. Yes, that would affect someone's ability to make decisions. But when you're talking to that individual client, seeing if those things are there, seeing how they respond, what's going, how their motivations are, will give you an idea of whether or not this is a case where mental health is an issue, or if this is a case where it's not and you're just dealing with someone who needs other direction, other avenues.
[00:41:02] Speaker B: So sometimes it's not clear, right?
[00:41:05] Speaker C: No, ma'.
[00:41:05] Speaker B: Am. Yeah, that's what it sounds like.
[00:41:08] Speaker C: And oftentimes, as I tell my. As I teach other lawyers, I tell my attorneys, if you meet with someone and you have this. That feeling going on here, especially my office, because we're very good about following, helping each other out. Have another attorney sit down, would you? Yes, we have a social worker on staff.
Ms. Howell used to be our social worker.
Have that social worker sit down with you. Get an opinion other than your own, you may be too close to it. Maybe they can see something that you don't.
[00:41:39] Speaker B: That's right. You wouldn't be able to be objective sometimes.
[00:41:42] Speaker C: Yes, ma'. Am.
[00:41:43] Speaker B: That's smart. What about, can you share before we go to the next break? It's our last break, but can you share an example, you know, without revealing confidential details of a time when compassion played a key role in achieving a fair or just outcome, you know, for one of your clients?
[00:42:04] Speaker C: Well, I had a client who, and I will simply say this, what he was accused of, what he did, there's no question that he committed. The acts that he was accused of were about as bad as you could be accused of. It involved the taking of someone's life and the harm that he did to a family. That it was very, very, it was sad.
But after speaking to him and looking at everything, it was clear that his motivations for doing what he did were absolutely mental health related. He was very deep into some delusions and to some very unrealistic base beliefs that caused him to commit the act that he committed, committed.
And so looking at that, the compassionate thing for him was to get help and to show that he could be a productive member of society.
And that is what happened. Now it was a very long process, I bet, so that that does happen. But getting him the help that he needed to where he did not suffer from those issues was very, was in my opinion, compassion. He paid a punishment, he was punished, but he also got help and got, I won't say better because you know, it's an ongoing fight of medication every day.
[00:43:45] Speaker B: I know.
[00:43:46] Speaker C: But yeah, got level.
Put it that way.
[00:43:49] Speaker B: Yeah, that makes sense.
Thank you for that. Let's go to our last break. When we come back, we've got one more email question and I've got a few more before we close up. So we'll be right back here listening to brain matters on 90.7 the Capstone.
[00:44:16] Speaker C: WVUAFM Tuscaloosa.
[00:44:19] Speaker A: This show is not a substitute for professional counseling and no relationship is created between the show hosts or guests and any listener. If you feel you are in need of professional mental health and are a UA student, we encourage you to contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective counties crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
[00:44:55] Speaker B: Hey you back listening to brain matters on 90.7 the Capstone. I'm BJ Guenther. We're talking tonight about balancing justice and compassion, defending students with mental health challenges. And. And my guest is Eric Snow. Eric is the chief assistant for the public defender's office. He's chief assistant public defender for Tuscaloosa county, actually. And when we left off, we were just talking about the challenges really, of having a defendant who has a mental illness and with college students, you know, have you seen what types of cases you mentioned? Substance abuse. What are some other types of cases that would involve. Involve college students and mental health? I'll say it that way.
[00:45:41] Speaker C: So, strangely enough, I will say that there have been cases involved. Stalking.
[00:45:49] Speaker B: Yes, I've heard of those recently. Yes. More. More in the last few years. I'll say it like that.
[00:45:55] Speaker C: And usually those involve a mental health issue because of that abject fixation that you have. And usually it's some, sometimes not based in reality, but that is one of the ones that's coming up. Part of that.
You've got burglary charges, you've got theft charges, you've got assault charges between roommates, between friends groups that are based upon some one party not having a true grasp on reality of what's going on. On.
You also have had, you know, I've had some cases involving theft and vandalism where people really just kind of, they kind of lose it. They snap and they just start breaking stuff and they.
And some type of intervention is required to get them done.
You know, I will say, and I'm not an expert on this field, I would refer to y', all because y' all know this better than I do.
But that college age, especially male between the age of 17, I think, to 22.
[00:47:05] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:47:06] Speaker C: Is very, very likely to have some type of a psychotic break. Yep. And that is what we've had to deal with in the past.
I, I had a college student who, he wound up, he was just literally in a daze, walking through a parking, started kind of beating on a car, just beating it just. So it was criminal. It was criminal mischief. And he made a lot of damage, so it was a felony. And he went to the county jail and his family bonded him out and he wouldn't leave, he wouldn't leave his sale.
So the, you know, the, the jail deputies had, they, they got him up and they took him to where he needed to go.
He wouldn't get dressed to leave.
And whenever they got him dressed and got him outside, he sat down in one of the chairs outside in the lobby and leave yeah.
And he wasn't responsive.
So that was, that was a situation where he had that psychotic break.
And, and we, we have to deal with that because it, y', all, again, y' all know that much better than I do as far as those numbers. But it does happen.
[00:48:26] Speaker B: It does happen.
[00:48:27] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:48:28] Speaker B: I've had, I've had a student who wouldn't leave my office one time, had to get the UAPD to come and help me. Yeah, it's kind of a similar situation. I know what you mean.
Well, okay, I've got the last email question. What advice do you have for students interested in or already attending law school to help them balance compassion while fighting for justice?
[00:48:51] Speaker C: Those. So I would say if you're looking to try to do that, balance compassion and fight for justice while you're in law school. There are a lot of different volunteer opportunities in law school. Our law school has several different clinics that folks can go through.
They have an elder law clinic. They have a criminal clinic. That would give people an opportunity to try to be a part of the community, to try to help folks in the community to get help that they need. Our law school also has a dual diagnosis social work law program. Now that a person who is interested in that giving back can try to secure both a social work and a law degree as part of their studies and what they want to try to do.
So I would suggest those as avenues. Now, I would say this because I work with law students. I've worked with them for many years.
I will also say that whatever you do, please keep in mind your own self health.
Because law school is in and of itself an extremely stressful time.
[00:50:01] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:50:02] Speaker C: Extremely stressful environment.
And it's very easy to burn yourself out.
[00:50:09] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:50:09] Speaker C: And you do not want to do that. It's great to want to help people, but please be cognizant of making sure you have self help as well.
[00:50:17] Speaker B: Yeah. It's all about balance.
Finally, Eric, what keeps you hopeful? What keeps you hopeful in your work?
Given the challenges we've talked about tonight, balancing justice and compassion every day. What keeps you hopeful?
[00:50:31] Speaker C: I run into my office represents people from all over this county and you go out you on the community, you're. You're going to see one of my clients. Clients.
One of our clients.
[00:50:46] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:50:46] Speaker C: And when you see someone who you've helped, who is doing good, who is proud of where they're at now in their life, who are not frankly not vaccine you because you don't want to. We really don't want people to come back.
[00:51:04] Speaker B: Yeah. It's like I tell people if they get in trouble, I, I, it's nice to meet you. I hope I never see you again.
[00:51:10] Speaker C: You know, but that is the best feeling whenever you actually can see that you've made a difference in someone's life.
[00:51:17] Speaker B: Yeah, it's true. It's very fulfilling. You know, you're doing the right, you know, you're in the right profession, you've chosen the right career path, as challenging as it is, and how you can get burned out. You mentioned that. And some people do become desensitized, I'm sure, in my profession and yours.
[00:51:34] Speaker C: Yes, ma'. Am.
[00:51:35] Speaker B: So, hey, thank you for being on the show. It goes by fast, doesn't it?
[00:51:39] Speaker C: Can you believe does go by fast.
[00:51:42] Speaker B: Can you, do you need to add anything before we close? Can you think of anything you'd like to add?
[00:51:49] Speaker C: Simply that if you're feel like you have a mental health issue, if you're suffering, it's okay. It's not a, it's not a thing to be scared of or to be ashamed of.
[00:52:01] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:52:02] Speaker C: Get help. Because it's easier to get help before there's a problem than to get help after the problem comes up.
[00:52:12] Speaker B: Well said. Thank you again.
Appreciate it.
[00:52:16] Speaker C: Thank you for having me. BJ and I always enjoy seeing you.
[00:52:18] Speaker B: No problem. Let me make a few announcements before we go. Don't forget, our shows are recorded and podcasted on The Apple Podcast, audioboom.com and Voices UA Edu. Just type in Brain Matters. You'll find some of our past shows. And there's also a link to Voices UA Edu on our counseling center's website. And that's Counseling UA Edu. As always, I want to thank a few people who've made the show possible. Dr. Greg Vanderwaal, he's our executive director here at the Counseling center. My producer and colleague, Katherine Howell, my colleagues here at the Counseling center, Gareth Garner, who edits our shows weekly and does a great job, the WVUA staff, and of course, my guest tonight, Eric Snow. Next week we're going to have an interesting show. I always like to do something for Halloween, so, so I'm gonna do the topic Halloween traditions around the world. And my guest will be Dr. Alan Brown. He's been on a couple of times before and he's always a very interesting person to be on the show. So I'm excited about that. So join us next week, same time, same place, same station. Thanks again for listening and have a good.
[00:53:31] Speaker A: This show was not intended as a substitute for professional counseling. Further, the views, opinions and conclusions expressed by the show hosts or their guests are their own and not necessarily those of the University of Alabama, its officers or trustees. Any views, opinions or conclusions shared on the show do not create a relationship between the host or any guest and any listener, and such a relationship should never be inferred. If you feel you're in need of professional professional mental health and are a UA student, please contact the UA Counseling center at 348-3863. If you are not a UA student, please contact your respective counties crisis service hotline or their local mental health agency or insurance company. If it is an emergency situation, please call 911 or go to your nearest emergency room.
